Snowshill Manor, UK

Question for any of the UK based members

I went to Snowshill Manor today in the Cotswolds. I had been told a few sets of Japanese armour were on display, part of an early to mid twentieth century collections of bits and peices from all over the world, by a guy called Charles Paget Wade.

Well there were about 8 complete sets of armour on display in a very dim room in the house, and maybe 4 or 5 naginata (on poles) plus a bunch of yari (also on poles) leaning up in the corner. Each set of armour has wakazashi and katana or Tachi stuck in them at odd angles and there a few tanto lying around on the floor with two or three sword racks with katana and tachi upside down on them. More stuff was in there, however but close examination was not possible due to the fact that you could not enter the room.

All pole arm blades were bare and all swords were in koshirae (of what looked like varying quality) I would suggest there are between 10 and 15 pole arms and 20 - 25 swords.

On speaking to the staff, they told me that the collection on view was nothing, they had boxes of the stuff crammed away in a spare attic of the manor!!

They also told me that they "had sent one sword to Japan to be cleaned and had been told by the Japanese that it was a National Treasure and they had a bit of paper that showed how it cuts. Also when the Japanese had taken off the handle, they had found some markings underneath and all sorts of writing. Apparently is was made by someone really famous who only made 3 swords ever and we have one of them and it is worth about £60,000. "

When I skaed them if they had any details of this smith written down they said they didn't and they had no idea who he was.

"We are taking very good care of everything. The Leeds Armoury comes down once a year and cleans the room" I asked if they meant cleaning the actual blades? " Oh no... they only clean the room... they do not touch the armour or weapons! "

Does anyone know about this collection at Snowshill?? Seems like the Nation Trust do not have a single clue what they are doing with this stuff... I have some contact details of the NT lady who is going to be inventorying all of this for the Trust... I was thinking of getting in touch with her and letting her know that these artifacts could be better served in a permamnet exhibition of some kind and cared for as they should be.

I wonder if our British based memebers can shed any light on this?

Cheers!

Nigel,

I would contact the Uk Token Societies, see if they can get involved. Particularly a call to Clive Sinclair? Maybe Ian B. here can assist?

I have a good idea that this might be the same collection in the pics in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3347

Some lovely looking stuff...but not well displayed. The yari all look to have the same poles too...wonder if they were redone at some time to match? Some of those swords look intriguing too...and I have no idea what that middle one is that Frank was asking about.

Brian

Hi Bri,

No this is a different place...not sure what house Frank is referring to, but his pictures seem to show a fairly well preseved display of swords...

If you can imagine a dusty, dingy (let the light in Miss Haversham!) back room, with swords lying around, propped up in the corner, couple of tanto laying on the carpet... Japanese armour, etc... It took me 15 minutes of standing there just to get my eyes adjusted to the gloom.... I still couldn't see the far corners of the room...

Also Frank referres to a stately home... this is more a crumbly old manor house... lovely place, but certainly not what I would describe as "stately"..

In addition... nothing is marked... nothing to sy what is what.... the only thing to stop you getting in there is a chest high perspex screen... The staff do not have a clue about any of it...

cheers!

I am sure Ian B will have a more detailed understanding of Snowshill and I think he has had contact from his time at the Armouries. However remembering a conversation I had some 20 years ago I was told that the house and collection was left to the National Trust but one of the conditions was that it be kept together and on display "As was". The original display room being a reconstruction of a Samurai camp before battle. From your description it sounds as though this may have been changed, whether for the aesthetic or conservation.

Unfortunatley many such displays were assembled in country houses during the 19th century with goods from the Empire and more laterly from Japan as the country opened to 20th Century tourists. Many collectors of the day had little if any idea of the value of what they had. In fairness much of what they were sold were tourist pieces.

The NT suffers the same problem as any other heritage body, funded largely by donation it has major problems meeting the maintenance costs of buildings and collections. I think they must get to the point of dreading being left another stately home to maintain.

The issue is who else could look after the collection. I have the impression the Armouries are fully stretched with their own items so are many other museums.

Most true restoration and conservation rests in the hands of private collectors. Unfortunately I dont think the National Trust are able to break up or sell the Snowshill collection.

Paulb

Hi Paul,

Yes they did clear out the house completely and close it down so they could re organise. From what I was told there was simply so much stuff in there that ist wasn't practical.

They have thinned out the samurai rom a little to make it a bit easier, so there are not as many swords, pole arms and sets of armour as there once was... also yes the room is set up to look like samurai sitting or standing in a camp area.

Thanks for your info, Paul... Iunderstand completely what you mean about the NT and funding, etc... I hope to get more from Ian B...

Cheers

Is there any chance the room we're talking about is the following one from Ian's book ?

(Ian if there is any problem in posting the pics let me know and I'll remove them immediatly).

Hi Carlo,

It looks very similar, but has changed I think since that picture was taken...

The staff told me it had been "thinned out a bit" in the last few years, when they closed the manor completely for a time.

Now there is two house style shrines, one either side of the room too...

The room looks remarkably similar though.... So I would be inclined to beleive that this is it... is there any photo credit/explantion on Ians book?

Cheers!

...edit... Carlo, I have just picked up the flyer for Snowshill manor and the same picture as you posted is on it.... so it is definately the same place...

Yes, the picture used in my book is of the room in Snowshill in the days when it contained 26 armours and masses of other stuff. My association with the place goes way back. When I first saw the Japanese collection, which was acquired mainly in the 1930's and 40's, it was in a bit of a state. He had set up the display on dummies knocked up by his gardener and based on a Japanese made figure. Back in the 1960's some of the better armours had been loaned to the Tower of London (about 8 I think), so I guess there are 34 or 35 in the whole collection. By the time I first saw them, parts had become dispersed and mixed on various figures and many were pretty dirty. These were sorted out and a complete catalogue of the armour was produced. There were also numerous swords, yari and guns as well as oddments like saddles and stirrups but I never really came to grips with these. I do remember a couple of daisho, tachi and one rather basic no-dachi. When the Royal Armouries moved to Leeds, the entire Oriental collection came with it, except for the Snowshill armours that were returned to the National Trust. As far as I know these did not go back on display but were put in storage. More recently, as I understand it, the house was deemed unstable and was closed whilst floors and so on were repaired. For reasons of conservation it was decided that a part of the collection was too delicate to be placed back on display, which is why they are now in storage.

As for the Royal Armouries staff cleaning the place, it did not happen whilst I was a curator there although there may have been some dialogue between conservators of the two institutions. It is perhaps worth saying that the guides at these places are volunteers. They are given guidance as to what to say but I suspect enthusiasm occasionally takes over.

Ian Bottomley

On due time, I missed it in my trips to UK.

Thanks Ian for your info. I visited the Manor prior to it's restoration and was flabbergasted by the sheer amount of itmes stored away in each room.

The armour room was quite something but you couldn't really enjoy the "view" because of the number of items and very poor lighting.

I see you mentioned that a catalogue was produced for the armour collection, do you have any more info as I only ever found a general guide catalogue.

Many thanks,

Paul.

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds here, but looking at thse pics just makes me want to dust everything.

I find it sad that there are amazing collections out there that are packed away in storage rooms and with the "laws" will probably remain there forever. There are some great items there, that receive next to no attention. These "benefactors" didn't have the knowledge to consign these items to a future of degradation and they belong elsewhere where they can be appreciated properly and cared for. (Yes..I would volunteer gladly :D )

It is my (personal) experience that whenever items like this are packed away for storage, every year a few items "go missing" out the back door. Even here, the military museum has a greater number of fine items packed away in closets than on display, and a lot has gone missing and into private collections never to be seen again.

Brian

I find it sad that there are amazing collections out there that are packed away in storage rooms and with the "laws" will probably remain there forever.

Sad ? Xç?K"§*

These "benefactors" didn't have the knowledge to consign these items to a future of degradation and they belong elsewhere where they can be appreciated properly and cared for. (Yes..I would volunteer gladly :D )

Believe it or not, authorities don't allow free volunteer's help, *even offered by ones that once were paid for it by the same authority*, as private experts. Sometimes a shortcut is allowed, but like a drop in the Pacific Ocean.

It is my (personal) experience that whenever items like this are packed away for storage, every year a few items "go missing" out the back door.

Mine too. Documented and denounced to authorities, with almost no consequence other then putting further limits to collection's access (and, consequently, control).

Hmmm... interesting stuff. About two years ago a Japanese man came to my room at college and showed me a faded colour photograph of a Japanese armour room in a stately home in the UK that he visited 30 years ago. He was with two Japanese and the house was owned by some titled chap, but he couldn't remember any names. The original collector was some plenipotentiary who had been in Japan 100 years or so ago. There were several sets of armour, and lots of good-looking swords in koshirae, and I particularly remember a shield on the wall that had Japanese swords radiating out of it, (like a claymore display) all of them having been welded to the back of the shield. He wanted me to do my best to rediscover out where the collection was, but I quietly left the photo on my table to gather dust as I had no idea where to start.

It didn't look like that room above though, more long and narrow, like a dining room.

PS I am afraid the suspicion of things being pilfered is more than likely...

It is indeed sad that so many wonderful items are languishing unloved, and in many cases unwanted, in the storerooms of museums. However, don't blame the curators. They are constrained by rules and regulations and its their reputation and job if things go wrong. As things stand, museums within the UK cannot dispose of objects without a vast amount of red tape. Remember it was generally some previous owner who donated the object and their wishes should be respected. Similarly, offers to clean and repair objects might well result in the permanent wrecking of an object by well-meaning but irreversable treatment. A curators job is to preserve for future generations and by and large they do a good job.

I must admit that museum professionals do tend to regard non-museum enthusiasts with caution. I myself have had to disillusion quite a few 'Japanese sword experts' who visited the collection I looked after. In most cases they came from the martial arts world and were convinced they knew all about swords. The very best occasion was when an 'expert' complained to a Gallery Host that an item was wrongly labelled. She called me down from the office to deal with the matter. The gent in question then started berating me over the description of a nagamaki and said words to the effect that had I read Ian Bottomly's book I would know that this description was wrong. I derived immense pleasure by holding up my ID card in front of his eyes.

Ian

Brian

Funds and Bureaucracy, as always.

and in many cases unwanted,

Unwanted. The perfect word. Most of the museums inherited these collections and are "forced" to preserve them

even if their main educational target is different from Far East Art.

However, don't blame the curators. They are constrained by rules and regulations and its their reputation and job if things go wrong. As things stand, museums within the UK cannot dispose of objects without a vast amount of red tape.

Curators, when specialized in Japanese art, are victims of bureaucracy as the objects.

And even when they are specialized, often they have to make decisions about how to use the ever-shrinking funds.

An inportan museum in north-eastern Italy is a perfect example. Lacquers come first. Then armors (because they are lacquered). If anything remains, blades. Guess about what the curator is specialized in ?

I must admit that museum professionals do tend to regard non-museum enthusiasts with caution.

That's part of their work. But when the same free offer comes from a professional that has already worked for the same

museum ? The only (sad) reply is : the curator has changed and the above mentioned reasons plays a role in the new

course.

The gent in question then started berating me over the description of a nagamaki and said words to the effect that had I read Ian Bottomly's book I would know that this description was wrong. I derived immense pleasure by holding up my ID card in front of his eyes.

Ian

Perfet for YouTube ! :lol:

, and a lot has gone missing and into private collections never to be seen again.

Brian

Call me a blasphemer, but for delicate objects like NihonTo it is sometimes preferable to end up in the hands of a (caring) private collector, than to rust away in a museum's cavern, neglected by contemporary museum's policy. There's money for a medieval Disneyland and a shop selling plastic swords to the kids, but no means for restoring a small, 700-years old tanto, which will never attract a major crowd.

After all: The blades matter. Our personal interests don't.

reinhard

Reinhard, I sympathise with your views to some extent, but there is another aspect. What may be 'flavour of the month' now, will change in due course. Although it is a little off topic, I undertook a bit of research once on Indian long guns because the Royal Armouries had a large collection of them. By and large they were of almost no interest to most people and are common enough, but almost no research had ever been done on them, even in India. By photographing their stocks and sticking them on a map in the location they came from, I built up a picture of where the half dozen or so stock types originated from. Had these weapons been disposed of, the associated information would have become separated and lost. Similarly, the Royal Armouries holds thousands of Napoleonic period bayonets, apparently all alike, but in reality the product of many workshops and all subtly different. Someday someone will do the research on them and add yet another piece of knowledge to the ever-growing catalogue.

Ian

Ian, I fully agree with you. I was focussing on certain museums, where the "ethnographical departement" is struggling with very limited financial resources, the curator is unaware of the particular treatment Japanese blades are in need of (not necessarily his fault, nor demanded) and the museum's policy is focussing on popular events. - I did an inventory of a major museum-collection in Switzerland, whose collection of Japanese swords and fittings lied neglected for many decades in a basement. The curator, a very nice and interested gentleman, showed true interest and let me work on the collection. Amongst other quality objects they own a Tanto, signed by Sugawara KUNINAGA (from the Heianjo MITSUNAGA-school) and dated Embun 4 nen (1359). Tanobe-san, whom I had sent an oshigata and a photograph, confirmed the genuineness of the mei beyond doubt and gave the advice to handle this object with uttermost care, for blades of this particular KUNINAGA are extremely rare. That was seven years ago. The tanto is partially rusted but could be restored. It lies there still in a sad condition and it breaks my heart thinking of it, for the costs necessary for restoration would probably not exceed the bill for expenses of the PR-guys managing the museum's events. - NihonTo is a very special case, because of its delicate nature. Much more sensible than Napoleonic swords, f.e., to bad treatment. That's why I'd prefer to see some of them in private hands. This is not a general statement, of course.

reinhard

I did an inventory of a major museum-collection in Switzerland,

I envy you so much.

It lies there still in a sad condition and it breaks my heart thinking of it,

No more sure to envy you.