Thoughts please

Brian not sure if this is the correct place to post please feel free to move if not.

Hello all.

Just a query to something I have been pondering! If the list below is generally acknowledged as the basic style or type of what is termed “Samurai Sword “

• Nodachi, Ōdachi, Jin tachi: 90cm and over.

• Tachi: 80 to 90 cm

• Katana: 71 to 76 cm

• Chisakatana: 60 to 66 cm

• Wakizashi: 55 to 58 cm

• TantÅ, Aikuchi: 28 to 41 cm

• Yoroi toshi: 23 to 30 cm

• Kwaiken 8 to 15 cm

Then how many variations of Samurai Sword are there? Would for example would a “Ken†be classed as a Samurai Swordâ€

Although I understand that Naginata and Yari, due to the methods by which they are forged, are still considered part of the Nihonto family. Is there a definitive list of all types?

The reason really for the question is I have seen a Japanese Sword “photo attached†and I wondered what type it was, as there was no description to it or any of the others that were in the display.

Please accept my apologies for the photo it was very late and of course behind glass and taken on my mobile phone!

Many thanks in advance.

Frank

Frank,

I think there are a number of inaccuracies there that have to be addressed.

A lot of this is just convenience to (mainly) Westerners (very much like the Gokkaden) that don't actually exist. It helps us to put things into nice and neat little boxes. A Katana is a Japanese sword, which we have started to use for a blade longer than 60.6cm.

Tachi aren't identified by size. If I quote from Paul Martin here:

The classification of katana and tachi is not due to length. The katana is where the cutting edge is uppermost when worn through the sash with the makers inscription facing outwards (sashi-omote). When the sword is worn suspended from the sash with the cutting edge towards the ground with the makers inscription facing outwards, this is a tachi. Long tachi etc, of more than 3 shaku (90.9 cm) are referred to as Odachi, whereas small blades (tachi style) under 2 shaku (60.6 cm) are called ko-dachi.

Chisakatana is also not governed only by length, but by how it is mounted and intended to be used. Yoroi-doshi are tanto...only they are thicker and a bit shorter, and made for piercing armour. They are defined by looking at the shape, style and mounting to determine if that was the intended use.

Basically what we use is:

Tanto: Blade shorter than 30.3cm

Wakizashi: between 30.3cm and 60.6cm

Katana: Blade longer than 60.6cm

The rest are sub-divisions of those classifications based on the way it was mounted, carried or used.

This is a good article on the subject: http://www2.una.edu/takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Cu ... of_wak.htm

Many of the terms we use nowdays aren't strictly correct, but they help us to speak about the subject. Hence Gendaito for hand forged, Showato for machine made, and calling genuine hand-made items Nihonto. I guess we even call Naginata and yari Nihonto, even though strictly speaking they aren't.

There is no real guide to placing tanto, wakizashi, katana, tachi, hamidashi, aikuchi, naginata, chisakatana, uchigatana, yari, odachi, chokuto, nagamaki etc etc into neat little boxes. I guess we just make the call based on what we see.

Regards,

Brian

Brian, thanks very much for you clarification, it just goes to show I have a bit more reading to do at least I now understand what ko and Ô- mean, thanks again for taking the time to explain.

Best regards

Frank

ps any idea what type of sword is in the photo?

Frank,

Might help if we know where you saw that odd item. Without seeing the blade, I have no idea. I assume since it was behind glass, that it was in a museum somewhere? Are you certain it was Japanese and not some other Asian country?

Brian

Brian

This sword is set up with other Japanese swords, this led me to believe it is Japanese in origin; the cabinet was in a large stately home here in the UK. I have attached another shot to show it in its full context. Sorry for the reflection in the glass, it spoils the the

shot

regards

Frank

Frank,

Same one Nigel is talking about here? viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3354

I have no idea what that sword is from the pics. Might be some or other chokuto, but the mounts aren't right. Hmm.

Brian

As a wild guess;

Fukuro Shinai (袋竹刀).

The "red sticks" you see in their hands are called Fukuro Shinai (bagged shinai) and are the practice weapon used during training. These weapons are constructed of a stick of bamboo about 1 1/4 inches in diameter by 40 inches long. They are then split into 8 sections for approximately 2/3 of the length of the bamboo. This gives the bamboo flexibility when striking and prevents serious injury. The bamboo is then slid into a long leather sheath which is covered with multiple layers of red lacquer. This stiffens the leather and protects it from repeated strikes and blocks. A long lace extends from the leather sheath which is then wrapped around the exposed "handle" of bamboo to secure the sheath.

Ref. http://samuraigwynne.blogspot.com/2006_ ... chive.html

I think you may have it Moriyama san, that does resemble it down to the laquered-looking leather, and improvised grip.

Brian