Feelings on "dressing out" a Nihonto?

I have a very special Nihonto that I keep in shirasaya, but feel that it deserves to have custom period-correct koshirae & furniture for the blade to be "complete."

I've spoken to several of my sword society members about this potential project, & about half feel it's a waste of time & money, while the rest think it's a great idea. Comments? Suggestions?

Ken

I think, as long as the koshirae & furniture are original (no replica) and the blade is worth it, I think it is a good idea. As it was normal to have different furniture for the blades and to get new ones as the times (styles) changed, I see nothing wrong with getting some today.

Alex

Hi Ken,

No harm in doing this so no waste of time but friends are correct when they tell you it is a waste of money. When the time comes to sell (and it will come) you'll be lucky to recoup half what you spend to make the koshirae.

Grey

If it's not a strain on your finances, why not?

Hi Ken.

I have done this a couple of times for 'special' swords which I still own. In my experience it takes a long time to find the appropriate tosogu since these usually dont come along in sets very often and its almost (but not quite) impossible to assemble a koshirae from disparate pieces.

When push comes to shove, then it depends on the sword, its age, its type and of course its quality. Also the type of koshirae that is appropriate. If its worth doing, then its worth doing well and that is never either easy or cheap. It can be most enjoyable finding just the right combination, it can also be very frustrating and time consuming. If you are going to have the koshirae made from scratch by a modern artisan, then it comes down to choosing one (preferably Japanese) and letting him decide the appropriate style within your parameters. This is the 'old' way......... koshirae made to order.

Are you willing to share the details of the 'Special' sword that you have and wish to mount? little details like Is it koto or shinto, what style koshirae you have in mind etc...... :D

Are you willing to share the details of the 'Special' sword that you have and wish to mount?

Well, it's my Kiyomaro, Keith, papered & very special. It has very nice shirasaya, but seeing it in koshirae has been my plan for quite a few years. If it was Koto or Shinto, I know just the artisan in Osafune, but he refuses to work on koshirae for Shinshinto or newer blades. There isn't a lot of information I've found on how Kiyomaro mounted his blades, even in the Sano Museum book "The Flores of Japanese Sword Masters of the Edo Period," so I don't have a lot to work from. Even the old Google references from Christie's show just the blade, rather than the koshirae.

That's been a large part of what has slowed me down on this project.

Ken

Interesting topic but I'll refrain from commenting as I'm not Japanese

Ken, for a blade like that, I think that it is a sensible thing to do. I have a Tsuda Sukehiro in Japan right now getting such a restoration. Just the new saya, which is top grade, is $4000! I already had the tsuba and fuchi-kashira, but had to get menuki. Since it's a special sword, the cost of the restoration will be subsumed into the overall value of the blade. But doing it for a lower ranked and/or less valuable blade would be far from economically sensible unless it has sentimental value. Just my view trying to compromise between the emotional (desire to really honor the blade) and practical (desire not to loss my shirt on it). Cheers, Bob

Ford.

Being non Japanese has never stood in the way of you doing and making Japanese things before has it? It certainly hasn't stopped you from winning prizes and gaining recognition against Japanese competitors or voicing various opinions on Japanese objects either. Why start pouting about your lack of Japanese ethnicity now????

When I made the 'preferably Japanese' stipulation, I was thinking about the well meaning idiots who try to emulate Japanese artifacts with at best mixed, and at worst no, success. You are quite a different type of idiot.....You have talent. :D Hell, if I had money to chuck about and could afford your work, I might in a moment of weakness buy some of it.

Ken.

I too think your Kiyomaro would be an excellent sword for such a project, and I can appreciate the difficulty in selecting the correct style of koshirae for it. Now, who do we know who might have some inkling as to what would be appropriate ??? I seem to recall a South African dude who hangs around here sometimes. He might know someone, even though he's not Japanese. :D

Hi Ken:

Here is a suggestion for you - buy a period koshirae that you like and then have it remade for your sword. New saya, new tsuka but all the fittings from an original mounting. Some might not like loosing the original but there you have a complete set that has seen use during the period required. At least all the fittings will go together. It may end up a lot cheaper and certainly more authentic than most other options.

Hey, Barry:

I like that idea! Now all I have to do is figure out how Kiyomaro mounted his blades & I can get to work on finding the appropriate starting koshirae. At least it's late Shinshinto, so there ought to be some good ones available.

I'm really quite amazed that I haven't been able to locate ANY source that shows a mounted Kiyomaro! Do you think that he just didn't bother with anything except shirasaya, Keith?

Ken

Ken -

I would think what you need to do is research who his clients were. From there you should be able to piece together what the likely taste was of the area they came from and so know the likely rig that would have housed one of his works...

-t

Thomas, I've already tried to do that, but there's even less info on his clients than there is on his koshirae. If you know his history, Kiyomaro started early, ran away, & finally came back & built an unknown - but small - number of blades in an 8-year period. I expected one of my references to at least tell me at which museums his blades are archived, but no luck there. Then I started looking for koshirae from his teacher (Toshitaka) or his students (Kiyondo, Nobuhide, Masa-o, & Sane-o), but again I'm striking out.

If you have some good leads I'm ready & willing to do the legwork!

Ken

Ken.

Its my impression that Kiyomaro and his students at least would only have supplied the blade in shirasaya to their clients. Much as any swordsmith would have done. The koshirae was something of a separate undertaking as you know and was subject to the tastes of the blades owner, and of course the accessibility of a skilled artisan.

Assuming that he had a variety of clients with sometimes differing tastes, short of going overboard with something totally tasteless and dandified, I doubt that you can actually put a wrong koshirae on the sword if one simply follows the 'tastes of the time' in selecting a mounting. keep it tasteful and suitable for a samurai of the period.

I remember hearing somewhere that there is a society of owners of Kiyomaro blades, but can't find anything on it. That type of group would likely be a good source of the info I want.

Keith, I hear you, but I gotta' say that I'm not an expert on which koshirae would be period-correct in very late Edo. And I'm not even sure that Kiyomaro's clients would have been Samurai at that late date.

Ken

Ken,

You must go your own way. Kiyomaro was a smith and did not bother about koshirae. If you were Kiyomaro patron, what will you do?

You will order him a blade, choose carefully fittings or have them made on order by the best craftsmen and then have them assembled by top craftsmen.

To sum up, if you want to copy a Kiyomaro koshirae, you will copy someone else taste.

Ken, the following is completely personal opinion...I enjoy refitting blades originally in incomplete, broken or low quality koshirae with a complete set of presentable koshirae. Some might say that I should be able to appreciate a blade in shirasaya, which I can, but honestly I just prefer to look at and handle complete swords, I get more pleasure from it.

In the case of your Kiyomaro, if it were I, I would as Barry said, either purchase a complete koshirae and have it remade for your blade, or simply commission an entirely new koshirea from someone whos work you really admire. I would tend towards the latter, what with such a blade being unique and personal.

Fantasizing now, it would probably take me a year or so to decide upon the general designs and theme of the koshirae...who would make it would come down to who had the time, but would be between less than a handful of people I know of, (two of which are not Japanese) all of whom make some of the finest contemporary fittings available today.

I would say, if it is for your personal enjoyment, make it personal (commission your own work). I believe that in the end, your enjoyment will be even greater.

Fantasizing now, it would probably take me a year or so to decide upon the general designs and theme of the koshirae...

A year?

Ford's tsuba and fuchigashira in the classifieds at the moment with Higo shaped, doeskin wrapped tsuka and a saya of Kens' choice, preferably not black.

There...only took a minute...

Keith,

what you seem to 'read' from my comment as pouting is actually sarcasm. I'm not at all concerned about not being Japanese. It was you that indicated being Japanese was preferable. In actual fact were I Japanese it would have severely limited what I could do in terms of work, the type of research I've managed to do and the experimentation I've undertaken would be unthinkable. As far as many, more informed, people in Japan are concerned my not being Japanese has been quite beneficial and a positive contribution to the development of the contemporary craft and art.

And as someone who is actually trying to make a living in this field I take exception (mild) to your comment that the artisan preferably be Japanese. I wonder about your knowledge of the state of the craft in Japan that you could have made such a blanket statement. While there are some exceptional craftsmen working today in Japan there are also many people working in the trade who are not so skilful nor well educated with regard to historical aspects of the tradition. I will go so far as to say that there is today no-one in Japan capable of the entire range of work I routinely produce.

Your 'preferably Japanese' comment ought probably to have read 'preferably Ford'...if you really knew what you were talking about. :D

regards,

Ford (that 'dude' in Africa)

Ken,

 

You must go your own way. Kiyomaro was a smith and did not bother about koshirae.

His „clients“, completely unknown by name and rank, certainly belonged to the more wealthy Samurai class. I suspect they ordered koshirae and tosogu from the respective craftsmen according to their own taste. There doesn‘t exist a mounting exclusively reserved for Kiyomaro swords.

On the site of Kenji Mishina are enough examples of various styles of koshirae, the goal would be to choose high quality tosogu.

Some original koshirae for katana.

Kiyondo

Nobuhide

Suzuki Masao

Yamaura Masao

Eric

Eric, those are wonderful shots! Just what I need! Yes, I could have certainly gone off on my merry way to choose koshirae & tosogu that I (non-Japanese, non-Samurai) think are appropriate, but having images of his students' choices will likely get me a lot closer on this once-in-a-lifetime (& not inexpensive) venture.

Mahalo nui loa! > Dome arigatou gozaimasu! > Thanks a lot!

Ken

P.S. If you happen to have those shots in high-resolution, Eric, please e-mail them to me at jssh@catii.com

I believe the first question which will be asked of you when you have this koshirae and sword together will be,"Is that koshirae original to the sword"? The look on their faces to your reply will be answer enough.

I think you are right on this one Pete, I have experienced it by the past

You know, Pete, I don't recall anyone ever asking that of me on any of my other Nihonto in koshirae. Do you think it will make a huge difference because of the smith?

Ken

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Yeah.

PS: I go to the three shows here and, yes, all the time.

Ken,

Perhaps you should inquire with Robert Hughes. His board name (and business name) is Keichodo. He has arranged many very nice koshirae by contemporary craftsman in Japan. It will help to have the kodogu you want first, and with the robust shapes common to Kiyomaru, just acquiring the sizes that will appropriately accomodate a big sword is the first big challenge. It's not common knowledge that the really high end kodogu and koshirae makers often had a sort of "blueprint" created prior to commencement. These were similar to a fitting makers "sketch book" or pattern book. I've seen a rare couple of these and have a copy of one or two around somewhere. In any event, the size of the blade will dictate the minimum suitable dimensions of kodogu. The style, metal, theme, workmanship and price create an exponential formula that makes finding suitable antiques a big challenge. This is where contemporary makers like Ford excel and are so crucial in that they can create some very lovely works in the appropriate size. As goes with anything else in this field, you have to be prepared to pay for what you want and need. These larger shaped blades make mounting them more expensive in many ways other than just fittings too, as they require more gold for shakudo or foil on a habaki, more time for labor, larger sizes of honoki for the foundations, more lacquer space, larger samegawa, etc.

Just food for thought.

I've commissioned a number of koshirae both for myself and for others. If you have any questions, feel free to email me Ken.

Wow! This has been quite a learning experience, & I thank all of you who have responded. I have had saya made, bought tosogu for project blades, & had a tsuka rewrapped, but a full-blown dressing-out of a major blade turns out to be in a whole other realm.

I plan to contact several of the people suggested in this thread, including Chris. Once I have an idea of what is appropriate, I'll choose what I like, set up a budget & schedule, & then get to work! This is of course a long-term project, but I'll rejuvenate this thread as things progress.

Aloha!

Ken

Ken,

The respective websites are stored on my PC, but they wouldn‘t work on your PC. Anyway I add some other pics that belong to the previously pictured koshirae.

Actually it is like nowadays, Men follow in clothing (not always, depends on the age :lol: ) the current fashion, and in those times equally for koshirae...the decisive factor is and was always the capacity of the wallet.

Eric

Thought I'd ressurect this for a second, there was an example of a sword by Kiyondo on Aoi Arts discussed in another topic, and thought it might be a useful reference for creating a koshirae, same era and student of Kiyomaro:

original source topic

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15227

Link from AOI ARTS,

http://www.aoijapan.com/katanaushu-shon ... ra-kiyondo

To me it seems like a very strong no-nonsense hybrid of Handachi and Toppei koshirae, not uncommon for larger than usual Late Edo period swords.

Regards,

Lance