"Tan" stamp

This came up on ebay...I can't tell much from the pics, but it is only the second "Tan" stamped sword I have noticed in 40 years. This seems to be Nagamura Kiyonobu who was a Seki Tosho in WWII.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0580558268

maybe members can give feedback on any swords they have seen with this stamp and their makers names so we can identify whether this is a smith's "private" mark or a "company" mark used by a number of smiths?

Regards,

Geo.

edit: this link doesn't work...sorry...at least we have one smith name for this mark.

I cannot see the link. Am I the only one?

Link edited and corrected.

Brian

George, I asked a question about Tan stamps about a week ago in the Nihonto section. So far, no answers.

This came up on ebay...I can't tell much from the pics, but it is only the second "Tan" stamped sword I have noticed in 40 years. This seems to be Nagamura Kiyonobu who was a Seki Tosho in WWII.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0580558268

 

maybe members can give feedback on any swords they have seen with this stamp and their makers names so we can identify whether this is a smith's "private" mark or a "company" mark used by a number of smiths?

Regards,

Geo.

I have only seen this stamp a handful of times and never on a top end gendaito. I do not believe it was a military stamp or it would be more prevalent. Most likely, as you have theorized, it was a shop or company mark used to indicated a forged blade. Does not mean traditional, necessarily, as it may not (probably not) be tamahagane....

Chris, I agree...this is probably a shop/company mark...my faded memory tells me the last one I had in hand was signed "...michi"...so if my memory is correct, we can expect to see a small number of mei associated with this stamp. My memory also tells me that I was not particularly impressed with the quality...as you say, maybe traditional forging...but tamahagane?

So Dave...I think this may be close to the answer to your question?

Regards,

George.

George,

Don't know if you've learned any more on the Tan stamp, but I'd like to hear it if you have. Here are a couple of links I've seen with the stamp:

Kanetada: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12773-type-98-gunto-tan-stamped

Kanekuni: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28201-kai-gunto-signature-help-tan-stamped/

Amahide (fleabay)

Fuller said the stamp means "forged", and general chatter on forums contend it is found on gendaito.

I'd like to know if you've got something more definitive about this one.

Chris, I agree...this is probably a shop/company mark...my faded memory tells me the last one I had in hand was signed "...michi"...so if my memory is correct, we can expect to see a small number of mei associated with this stamp. My memory also tells me that I was not particularly impressed with the quality...as you say, maybe traditional forging...but tamahagane?

So Dave...I think this may be close to the answer to your question?

Regards,

George.

A third one on a Kiyonobu blade.  Found HERE by @Beater.

@george trotter @mecox

I have 10 blades on file, now, by 7 smiths, all from Gifu!  That by itself doesn't help a lot.  But if you guys can see if these smiths have any other close connection, like a forge, it might help.

Tan

Sorry Bruce...can't help.

I have only seen one or two swords with this mark and that was 20-30 years ago.

Nor have I seen (or at least I can't remember seeing) any reference / discussion of this tan stamp over the years.

Regards...

A Kiyonobu courtesy of a 2014 link by Stephen.

Signed Japanese officer's katana and accompanying photo

Another Kiyonobu courtesy of Nic.

WW2 Katana Mei Identification

A Kanesumi 兼住 via sksguide.

Ww Ii Sword Translation

Contrary to the Blind Bruce, the Kanetada is dated 1942.  Waaaay overpaid as usual!

Type 98 Gunto - TAN stamped

2 hours ago, george trotter said:

Sorry Bruce...can't help.

I have only seen one or two swords with this mark and that was 20-30 years ago.

Nor have I seen (or at least I can't remember seeing) any reference / discussion of this tan stamp over the years.

Regards...

George,

I was actually hoping you would take a look at the smiths in the chart to see if any of them are connected in some way.

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

A Kiyonobu courtesy of a 2014 link by Stephen.

Signed Japanese officer's katana and accompanying photo

 

Another Kiyonobu courtesy of Nic.

WW2 Katana Mei Identification

 

A Kanesumi 兼住 via sksguide.

Ww Ii Sword Translation

 

Contrary to the Blind Bruce, the Kanetada is dated 1942.  Waaaay overpaid as usual!

Type 98 Gunto - TAN stamped

Thanks Thomas!

New chart with correct date and added smiths:

Tan

In defense of Bruce, it was Chris Bowen that mentioned it was 1943. But I think you're selling your chart a little short, Bruce. I think the Gifu connection does help because it's a consistent result. You may be able to narrow down a list of shops from that piece of info.

John C.

Any more pictures of the kanetsune?

Timothy N.

14 hours ago, tim89 said:

Any more pictures of the kanetsune?

 

Timothy N.

Here's what I have

22 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Thomas!

New chart with correct date and added smiths:

Tan

1941, Aug	Kanetsune – Gifu	Yahoo Auction
1942	Sadatsugu – Gifu	Hxv, NMB
1942, Jan	Kanetada – Gifu	David Price, NMB
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	Cillo, pg 37
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	Military trader, W-A
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	G584, NMB
ND	Kanekuni – Gifu	Zook, NMB, kaigunto
ND	Kanesumi, Sato (RJT) – Gifu	Sksguide, NMB
ND	Kanetoshi – Gifu	Slough, pg 122
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Cillo, pg 85
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Beater, NMB
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Aukshunshuset.com
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Nic, NMB

No, sorry Bruce. I have no access (that I know of) to information on these Gifu "commercial factory" smiths.

However, I see that 2 Gifu smiths on your list are listed as RJT so I might have some info on them (I will have a look tomorrow).

FYI here one little "titbit" you and your list have provided... I looked up your list smith Kanetoshi - (Slough pg 122) - and that is not correct...pg 122 is an entirely different smith called Endo Nagamitsu....maybe you could check your notes and see if you / your source got it wrong and actually meant another book or if it is in Slough, maybe it is Murayama Kanetoshi (in Slough pg 70). He is of GIFU and became RJT. He is listed in Nihonto Meikan p.158 as being of Gifu and during the war he worked at the SEKI  TOKEN KABUSHIKI KAISHA (Works photo in 1942 Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan p.16). This is the same sword forging premises where Nakata Kanehide RJT worked. I would SURMISE that if Murayama Kanetoshi is the Kanetoshi referred to in your list and he used the Tan stamp, it was in his previous pre-RJT period of work...unless the Seki Token KK had two standards of sword production, RJT gendaito and "TAN" (showato?).

This is about all I found and it was due to the link your list provided to Slough....hope I haven't made things more "clouded".

Hope this helps...regards.

43 minutes ago, george trotter said:

Kanetoshi - (Slough pg 122) - and that is not correct.

George, I think this came from another book, not Slough.  Anyone recognize the page/style?

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Anyone recognize the page/style?

Page 122 of F&Gs 1986 book entitled Military Swords of Japan, 1868–1945.

OK...Thomas answers the mystery Bruce. Thanks Thomas, I had a look in my copy and found the page.

Bruce, I just had a quick flip through Fuller and Gregory's first little yellow book "Guide to Showa Swordsmiths' 1978 and on p.78 (item 100) is an oshi of a TAN tang...it is signed NOSHU SEKI JU ZENJO OGAWA KANEKUNI with the notation that he was 'of the Zenjo school'.

Not sure about that statement but maybe you could try to find out a bit about the Zenjo in WWII....maybe the Tan stamp is theirs? or maybe Zenjo is just one of those "old school / line ID" slogans some smiths use.

Anyway, I'll see if I can find out anything about Ogawa Kanekuni tomorrow.

Regards...

2 hours ago, george trotter said:

Ogawa Kanekuni

This is all Sesko has on him.  Father and son, so possibly the son?

"KANEKUNI (兼国), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Nōshū Seki-jū Kanekuni saku” (濃州関住兼国作), “Kanekuni” (兼国), real name Ogawa Sentarō (小川仙太郎), he was born in the twelfth month of the sixth year of Meiji (明治, 1873) and studied under Kosaka Kaneyoshi (小坂兼吉), after the death of his master in 1914 he took over his training site Tōken Tanren Jo (刀剣鍛錬所), he died on July 14th 1939
KANEKUNI (兼国), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Kanekuni” (兼国), real name Ogawa Ichirō (小川一郎), born May 15th 1910, son of Ogawa Sentarō Kanekuni, he also studied under Kosaka Kaneyoshi (小坂兼吉) and was after his father also in charge of the training site Tōken Tanren Jo (刀剣鍛錬所), he died July 24th 1977"

Also found a discussion on this Terukado thread where it was stated that the Zenjo Ha was the Yoshisada Ha, of Seki.

A Kanetoshi 兼利 via GregD.

Arsenal Stamps.

An Amachi Kanenaga 天池包永 via waljamada.

Arsenal Stamps.

Well, good feedback Bruce and I see you've already found Ogawa Kanekuni.

I think this may play out as being a long, patient search for where/when/who owned, used the TAN stamp. So far (am I correct?) it seems that the users were all? in Gifu / Seki? 

I think this is a BRUCE job (with help from keen-eyed members)...I know I'll keep my eyes open.

Regards,

18 hours ago, Kiipu said:

A Kanetoshi 兼利 via GregD.

Arsenal Stamps.

 

An Amachi Kanenaga 天池包永 via waljamada.

Arsenal Stamps.

Thanks Thomas, good ones!

11 hours ago, george trotter said:

it seems that the users were all? in Gifu

That's correct, all Gifu.  As I think about it, the Showa and Seki stamps were originated because Seki area smiths & shops were bothered by poor showato on the market.  I've never checked the blades with these stamps to see if they are all Gifu/Seki smiths.  It would be logical, but I don't know it for a fact.  The dated blades (all 3 of them) seem to parallel the dated use of the large Seki stamp 1941 increasing to 1942.  Don't know what that means, but an observation none the less.

Latest Chart
 

Tan

Interesting, Bruce. All of the smiths' names start with K, except one. Was that a seki thing?

John C.

14 minutes ago, John C said:

names start with K, except one. Was that a seki thing?

Not that I know of, John.  Just checked the blades stamped with Seki and they span the whole alphabet.

2 hours ago, John C said:

Was that a seki thing?

Yes, KANE 兼 is a Seki thing.  I am sure @mecox, AKA Mino man, knows who the rascal was that started it way back when.

@Bruce Pennington

One more requested (應需）sword with the Tan（ 鍛）, made by 兼明 Kaneaki in February 1940. In the lunar calendar, the 正月 (first month) of 1940 fell in February.

34 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

February 1940

That's our earliest known one, thanks Trystan!

I have a Kanetsune. Not sure what the punch is at the bottom of the nakago though. 

Timothy N.