cleaning a nihonto

Hello everyone,

I have two simple questions to ask on this forum:

My first question is about the late war pattern shin gunto. They have 2 types of scabbards: wooden scabbard and iron scabbard. I was wondering if all and only the wooden scabbards have a black semigloss uneven coating, or if the iron scabbards could also be find with black semigloss uneven coating. I enclosed a pic of several Type 3 shin gunto to illustrate.

I have a Type 3 with green painted iron scabbard, and I was thinking about changing the aspect with black semigloss uneven coating. Is it a good idea? If not, why?

My second question is about the book of R.GREGORY and FULLER, Japanese Military Swords and Dirks. Because this book is very hard to find and also extremely expensive, I would like to know if and how it is possible to get a PDF copy and download this book?

Thanks in advance.

Bruno

Hi Bruno!

If I were you I would leave it green otherwise you

will ruin the swords history.

Best regards,

Hi John!

Thank you for your answer.

That is why I asked the question. I did not know if it was a bad thing to change the cover of the scabbard. I thought green paint is less pretty than black semi gloss cover. If you say it is bad I beleive you and won't change it.

About the Gregory and Fuller's book, do you have any idea if it is possible to have it or a part of it by downloading or something else. I could not find it for sell.

ps: sorry for my bad english skills!

Hi bruno!

No worry, my english skills are not the greatest either.

I'm sorry about Gregory's and Fullers but I can't help you on that point

but I'm pretty sure that someone on the board could provide you with some info. later on.

Best regards, John

I'm not aware of a cheap and easy copy of the Fuller & Gregory book. It is out of print and not likely to be reprinted. Copies do come available but tend to sell north of $300.

Jim Dawson's new book, Swords of Imperial Japan 1868-1945: Cyclopedia Edition is as good and probably a more comprehensive reference, and it is in print at $125 plus postage

Grey

Thanks Grey

Thanks Grey and John!

I will have a look on that book on Amazon.

It's a pity that the Gregory and Fuller's book is out of print, but 300$ or more, I still think it is a bit expensive whatever exceptional is the book!

Bruno

Hi Bruno,

That's a nice little group of Type 3 swords. I have seen a number of these over the years, and from what I have seen, only the wood scabbards have the dark colour and rough finish. The metal scabbards seem to have only various light brown smooth painted finish (I may be wrong but this is what I have seen).

This is off topic, but if those swords in the pic are yours (most mounted for left handed use), can you say whether the dark wooden scabbard ones both have good gendaito blades (maker's names?) and whether or not the brown ones are gendaito or plain gunto blades?

Regards,

George Trotter

Hi George,

This is off topic, but if those swords in the pic are yours (most mounted for left handed use), can you say whether the dark wooden scabbard ones both have good gendaito blades (maker's names?) and whether or not the brown ones are gendaito or plain gunto blades?

Can we infer from your question that the sword with a wooden scabbard are generally good gendaito blades for these kinds of mounts ?

It has been my experience that it is common to find Gendai blades (perhaps not "good") in wooden Ishime sayas.

Hi,

I haven't seen many of these type 3's but the few I noted are:

Dark ishime scabbard...AKIHISA (Yamagami Akihisa of Niigata 1 mil yen Toko Takan p.2)

2x metal scabbards were 2 x Yoshihide. Can't find him but lesser quality...no seki or sho stamps though... wouldn't say "good" gendai or even if they were gendai at all.

I was hoping that the swords in the pic might provide a little more info on the relative qualities in ishime or metal Type 3's.

From what I have seen, the good fittings seem to have good blades...stands to reason I suppose.

Regards

George.

Todd, Georges,

Many thanks

Sébastien

It has been my experience that it is common to find Gendai blades (perhaps not "good") in wooden Ishime sayas.

G'day All,

Ahhh, the first mention of "ishime". Firstly, most of the blades (sample of about 6 swords) I have seen in these mounts have been better class gendaito, and if not "good" then named smiths "in the books" and not poorer factory productions. Secondly, this seems a good time and place to ask my question about the green scabbards of "ishime". I have also seen this finish on the more normal Shingunto as well. It appears to me to be genuine urushi, that is to say, real ishime lacquer, the same as on katana of old. In which case, Bruno, I opine that this is a very expensive finish in its day and very traditional. To even think of taking it off amounts to a heinous crime IMHO. I have seen nothing in print about these ishime scabbards and would love to hear the opinions of others.

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

Baz me ol' bunyip,

I agree...to remove, or paint over such high quality lacquer would be terrible...but I'm sure Bruno has decided to leave things as they are.

I also agree about this lacquer work. I have seen it on a number of Type 98 koshirae as well. These mounts also contained better blades...gendai as well as shinto etc. I can remember that the scabbards varied in colour (like these Type 3's ) from almost black through a dark green to a reddish/marone brown.

I once saw a badly deteriorated scabbard and it had very thick lacquer over a coarse wrap of a linen like cloth (i think it was) over wood. I think this must have been a very expensive fitting and thus restricted to the well-off officer, hence the better blades usually found in them. They are rare in Type 98.

I looked up Ohmura san's site and he shows about 6 examples of these Type 3 ishime mounts all with Emura's and Nagamitsu's etc in them. He does not show the metal type (or I did not find them).

I agree, a rare and important mount.

Regards,

George.

Baz me ol' bunyip,

I agree, a rare and important mount.

Regards,

George.

Dear Old George - make sure you have company if you venture out into the dark!!!

Your comments encourage me to put here for your attention an extremely interesting Shingunto with ishime urushi saya that I catalogued for an auction here some 18 months ago. I would love to have bought it, but I had already savagely abused my credit card on sundry other Edo-malia!! However, the night is late and I'm knackered (Aussie expression for "tired beyond belief"), so I'll attend to it tomorrow - watch this space.

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

Hi everyone!

I was out for a while and I just read all the new answers, thank for all your advices!

My english is not perfect so maybe I missed things among the responses. Yes all the type 3 on the pic are signed but I do not know if they are traditional/semi-traditional or machine made blade. I read so many different opinions about that. Some say that they are all of bad quality, all machine made. Some say they are hand made but not with tamahagane, so I do not know who I should beleive!!!

I thought "ishime" cover was more pretty and more traditional looking than the military green paint. That is why I asked people opinions here on the forum. Everyone told me(if I understood well) that it is a bad thing to do, so I will forget the idea.

It is off the topic, but I am looking for someone who is interested by exchanging one of his gunto sword for one of my NCO sword. My NCO is in good condition, and it is no mather if the gunto I ama looking for is in lower condition.

Kind regards

Bruno

I am not sure of this, but I am wondering if some people on this forum thought that I wanted to replace the black ishime by green painting. In fact, I was thinking to do the contrary.

Now I won't do anything, both seems to be a bad idea according to what i read.

Hey everyone!

I just found an interesting link that give nice clue:

it seems according to this website that both (iron and wood) scabbards have "ishime" cover!

what do you think?

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_062.htm

Dear Old George - make sure you have company if you venture out into the dark!!!

- watch this space.

OK All,

The image I particularly wanted to show for Bruno as to quality urushi (traditional lacquer) finish on shingunto swords is this one:

The rest of the sword is off-topic and I'll post those on the Board index » Nihonto Discussion list under a new thread UNUSUAL SHINGUNTO.

George, I also have a damaged Shingunto lacquered saya that is damaged and shows the cloth underneath the lacquer.

Bruno, all this is to say that your "green" scabbards look to be traditional lacquer and should be preserved as such.

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

Thanks for your answer.

In fact the type 3 I was talking about, was the second one from the left! This one is just painted without any special treatment(no urushi), and it is also this one I wanted to change the scabbard with a nice urushi cover or black semigloss uneven coating.

Kind regards

Barry looking forward to your other post.

want to share mine, sp order saya with same under the urushi, and yes it does seem to have a backing on the lacqure

Thanks for your answer.

 

In fact the type 3 I was talking about, was the second one from the left! This one is just painted without any special treatment(no urushi), and it is also this one I wanted to change the scabbard with a nice urushi cover or black semigloss uneven coating.

 

Kind regards

OOOOOPS - I'm sorry, but in general the designations of these swords go right over my head, my gaze being focussed a little further back in time... I hope somebody gave you a good answer for your REAL question instead of my rambling...

Best regards,

Barry T.

So....finaly, does anybody know if Type 3 iron scabbards were also black semi gloss uneven coating or have urushi like wood scabbard? Or if only wood scabbard were like this?

Thanks

Bruno,

I read the Type 3 gunto site you posted and if you read it carefully it only says that the hilt-binding is lacquered...it does not mention lacquer on metal scabbards (Ohmura san's English is sometimes a little unclear as it is a direct translation of Japanese grammar). All the sword scabbards pictured there are wooden/ishime types...no metal scabbards. To answer your question, I think we can definitely say that the thick lacquer is only found on wooden scabbards (Type 3, 98, 94), and metal scabbards (Type 3, 98, 94) all have painted surfaces. I suppose there may always be an exception, but I personally have not seen it.

Your earlier comment about -some people say your swords are gendai and some say they are not- is a very good reason why you need to do your own study and be able to appraise your swords yourself...it's lots of fun learning swords.

regards,

George.

Thank you very much for your answer George!

Yes my english is not that good That's why sometimes I do not get everything. But I dare to insist, on the link above, the author seems to say "iron scabbard" with "black semi gloss uneven coating", no?

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_063.htm

Kind regards

My other question is: To know for sure that a sword is a gendaito or a machine made, the sword must be traditionnaly polished, otherwise it is not possible to see the grain of the blade? Am I right?

Hi Bruno,

Yes you are right. I read Ohmura again and he does say iron scabbard with black uneven coating. I must say however, that I have not noticed such a combination among those I have seen...in fact, all those with definite metal scabbards were all light coloured paint (light brown, yellowish or pale greenish colour).

I suppose, as with all Japanese things, there are always variations...Iwould be interested if any members have a metal scabbard with thick black (or dark) ishime finish or dark paint finish...at least it would confirm that we can never say never!.

About the traditional polish question.....I have not read or heard this before. As far as I can tell, all? blades, including Seki production (but not NCO blades) are polished in the traditional way...photos in Fuller and Gregory show rows of girls polishing them with stones and water. I think the difficulty in finding hada on some WWII blades is because they do not have it, not because of the way they have been polished.

Regards

George Trotter

Hi Bruno!

One rule to follow is that a Gendaito should be made of Tamahagane.

Best regards,

Hi John!

Yes I know that a Gendaito is made of tamahagane. But when you have a dirty ww 2 blade, to know if it is tamahagane or standard steel, you have to make it polished and it is very expensive, otherwise I do not see how to sure. Am I right or wrong? For example, I have a ww2 blade signed KANEMUNE, and this smith used to make tamahagane swords and standard steel swords, so because my Kanemune sword is dirty it is impossible for me to know unless I make it traditionnaly polished.

Maybe I am completly wrong!

Bruno

Hi Bruno!

You could send the sword to a polisher so that person can open up

a "window" on it, which means that a little piece of the blade get's polished.

After that you know for sure if the blade is worth a polish or not.

Best regards,

Thank you John

On your opinion, is it the only way to be 100% sure that a sword is tamahagane made instead of standard steel made; I means when that one is dirty?

Kind regards

Bruno