Bizen Mei

Going through e-bay auction I have found this one :

http://cgi.ebay.com/K-Japanese-SWORD-BI ... dZViewItem

Questions :

- Has anybody dealt with this seller before? (reliable or not)

- There 9 bids

- NTHK Kanteisho (not pictured)

- What do you think of the mei?

I f you have a look to the Nihonto Koza - Sue Bizen - (from memory I shall quote) : All sue Bizen blades I have seen with the following signature :

"Bizen Kuni Osafune Jyu ..." were gimei

The atypical Sue Bizen mei being : Bizen kuni/koku Jyu Osafune ..."

I am probably wrong taken into account the positive feedbacks on this seller, the fact there are already 9 bidders and that it is probably the classical exception to the rule.

Another auction from the same seller and this tsuka reminds me of another discussion "The same was repaired" :

http://cgi.ebay.com/K-Japanese-NAGINATA ... dZViewItem

Hi Jean,

Bizen no kuni Osafune + name as Bishu Osafune + name are the "trade mark" of kazuuchi-mono. Also there are "some" blades which are still extant, all Gimei? :lol:

Hi Jacques,

You missed the point.

The problem lies in the position of "Jyu".

Nihonto Koza and experts state that, in Sue Bizen, if in the mei, "Jyu" is after Osafune = Gimei

" Bizen kuni Osafune "Jyu" ...." = Gimei

"Bizen Kuni "Jyu" Osafune ......" = Shoshin mei

Here is one example of a good Sue Bizen mei :

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/07192.html

Hi,

Jean you are right i have missed that point

So, to NMB's members still alive or awake, what do do you think of it?

Hi,

Jean,

You are right however i think that it is a little bit more complicated

exemple here

extract:

Inscriptions on blades, however, can be deceiving. Mr Shimano cites a Sue-Bizen wakizashi he has inspected which had the shichijimei "Bishu Ju Osafune Sukesada" on the omote and the ura nenki "Tensho Ju ichi Nen Ni Gatsu Kichi Jitsu" (February, Tensho 11; 1584). The blade was mounted in attractive quality koshirae that would be fit a middle class samurai (hira-samurai) at fomal events required by a daimyo. A close

inspection of the blade, however, showed it to be of Mino origin and had

been shortened with a reconstructed nakago and a careful gimei inscription. Of note is that all the work was well done.

Jacques,

In the case I mentionned, the problem is that we have a Sue Bizen sword signed : "bizen koku osafune jyu sukemitsu saku" -

The "jyu" is misplaced at the opposite of your example where it is stated that the blade had a careful gimei inscription.

In my example, the problem lies in the syntax of the mei and the place of the "jyu".

Has any other NMB members encounter a certified blade (sue bizen) beginning by "Bizen kuni Osafune "Jyu" ...?

For the ones who interested in this mei (key point for gimei), here is an extract of the Nihonto Koza (AFU translation - Koto I) page 366 - last paragraph (It is quote of a quote)

Within the limits of what I have actually seen, most of the sue bizen mono with a mei of Bishu Osafune Jû Nanigashi and Bizen no Kuni Osafune jû naninagashi were Gimei - and as for the genuine mei, JÛ is above Osafune...

Jean,

I've understood what you say. But find a mei with the ju at the right place does not mean it is always genuine that would be too simple.

Jacques,

I perfectly understood your answer (and agree with you) but you are off topic.

Here is the topic and I would like your opinion and the NMB members one :

Going through e-bay auction I have found this one :

http://cgi.ebay.com/K-Japanese.....dZViewItem

 

Questions :

 

- Has anybody dealt with this seller before? (reliable or not)

- There 9 bids

- NTHK Kanteisho (not pictured)

- What do you think of the mei?

 

I f you have a look to the Nihonto Koza - Sue Bizen - (from memory I shall quote) : All sue Bizen blades I have seen with the following signature :

 

"Bizen Kuni Osafune Jyu ..." were gimei

 

The atypical Sue Bizen mei being : Bizen kuni/koku Jyu Osafune ..."

 

I am probably wrong taken into account the positive feedbacks on this seller, the fact there are already 9 bidders and that it is probably the classical exception to the rule.

 

Another auction from the same seller and this tsuka reminds me of another discussion "The same was repaired" :

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/K-Japanese.....dZViewItem

Hi Jean, I have watched this sellers auctions for some time. He sells so so swords with a good one now and then. He seems to keep most happy. Most times papers are pictured. John

Hi,

Sorry Jean it was not my intention

Concerning E-bay, i have never bought blades on it and i shall never do it.

This seller is one that really doesn't want us discuss his auctions or at least post his pics here (Not to say we won't discuss them, but don't post his pics here)

He has some nice items, ranging from fair to good, and a steady buyer following. Good communication..if not a little over-protective. Polish varies, but there are usually good pics and you get what you see.

Anyways, I am really interested in this topic. I have seen a sword signed Bizen Kuni Osafune Jyu... and it is interesting to me that there is a theory that this "ju" placement might indicate gimei. Of course that is not suggesting that the other placement automatically guarantees shoshin...but does anyone have more info on the placement of ju after Osafune?

Brian

Foreword : Everything I shall state in this topic is about Sue Bizen Blades starting from 1466 till Momoyama and is under my own responsibility

Thank you for your feedback Brian.

Considering the topic, I don't know the seller but my attention was drawn by the "Mei+NTHK kanteisho" (mentioned in the text but not pictured as in all the other Seller auctions where the Kanteisho is pictured).

I must confess (for the first time in NMB) I am going to be very direct :

The blacksmith of Bizen signed the custom-made

item with "bizen koku osafune jyu."

"bishu osafune jyu" and they signed the crude article.

In sue Bizen, this statement is totally false :

All NMB members can remember having seen hundred times the mei :

Bishu Osafune So and So (some of them are on Aoi-Art - whatever we think of this website - Tsuruta san states "

mass-product process has the signature begins Bishu-Osafune.

{C}http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06222.html{C}

Who remember Bishu Osafune "Jyu" Sukesada (no advertisins meant :lol:)?

Best swords were signed (in Sue Bizen) in the following syntax :

"Bizen Koku Ju Osafune Jurozaemon (No) Jo Harumitsu Saku."

Notice the place of Ju› in this mei (before Osafune) and not as stated by the seller

"bizen koku osafune jyu."

The Bizen Part of the Nihon To Koza was written by KOIZUMI HISAO and was revised and enlarged by HONMA JUNJI - It closes the controverse

I won't say that it does not exist Sue Bizen blades signed "Bizen Koku Osafune Ju» ..." but they must be as frequent as the Juyo Bishu Osafune ones (It exist one - thanks Darcy)

MY ADVICE : NEVER BUY A SUE BIZEN BLADE SIGNED WITH THE "Ju›" AFTER "OSAFUNE" UNTIL PAPERED AND A RETURN POLICY OR YOU WILL BUY A GIMEI (AT 99%).

Now for those who are skeptical: Please read Sue Koto : Japanese Swords of the 15th & 16th Centuries - Volume 2 - Bizen school - List the mei beginning as the Seller states "Bizen Koku Osafune Ju ..." (BTW Sukemitsu p151 - )

Some Sukemitsu blades are combined of Mokume and flowing itame but itame-masame

For those who wonder why such an outburst, I shall confess : my first buy was a Gimei "Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju ...." I speak by experience :rofl: :laughabove:

I think Darcy or Gordon could say some words about the syntax

[/b]

Hi,

Please Jean, read with attention this article and specially the paragraph named Kiyomitsu ha signatures and dates, you will find the mention sichijimei (7 characters) bizen osafune ju kiyomitsu.

the placement of the kanji ju before or after Osafune is not an absolute rule to discern a soshin mei or à gimei.

Hi Jacques,

Read carefully what is written :
 

I won't say that it does not exist Sue Bizen blades signed "Bizen Koku Osafune Ju» ..." but they must be as frequent as the Juyo Bishu Osafune ones (It exist one - thanks Darcy)

.

The article provided proves at 100% that I am right - There is none mentioned

Now, there may be some exception for Bishu Osafune Ju» very scarce compare to the others but not made to order blades with personal blades.

But as you are a specialist of references, please I encourage you (and NMB members) to list in the article the number of mei mentioned beginning by "Bizen koku ju osafune" and "Bizen koku Osafune Ju ...." (0) or "Bishu Osafune Ju....) - In all Kaji listed I have not seen the mei "Bishu Osafune Ju ..." but one - listed only in Hawley (Hyoe no jo kiyomitsu)

Page 28 of the article there is an exhibition with no blade mei beginning by "Bizen kuni Osafune Ju» .."

Now I am curious to know how many shoshin papered Sue Bizen blades NMB members have come across bearing the mei "Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju» ..." and How many bearing the "Bizen kuni Ju» Osafune ..."


Only thing I can say is that Honma Junji in "his short life" has never seen a Shoshin mei (in Sue Bizen) beginning by "Bizen Koku Osafune Ju ...".


We have a saying in French "Exception creates the rule"