Dark deeds afoot

Gentlemen, Here is a little reminder of why I believe you should be so careful of on-line auctions. A few days ago, whilst browsing a well-known Japanese auction site I came upon the sad sight of a very nice armour being sold off, sans helmet. A few pages later on the same site was what is undoubtedly the helmet for the armour with a considerable number of bids on it that had reached around $1200. Since the auction is still on going I must desist from being too specific and quote actualities. The seller on that site states quite clearly that there will be no early termination of the auction. Now I happen to regard it as sacrilegious to split up a perfectly good armour, but there you go, that is the mercenary world we live in. Today whilst browsing eBay, there was the self same helmet, posted a couple of days after the original auction had started, and using the same photos as the original, with a best offer price of around twice the price it had reached in the original auction. This was posted by a Japanese 'collective'. Then to compond the mystery, on the very same page of eBay is the same helmet yet again, with again the same photos, that had been posted two days earlier than the other by yet another so-called 'collective'. This time the 'buy it now' price was over 2 1/2 time the price it had reached in the original auction.

Now it is perfectly possible that all of this is legitimate and that the owner has put the helmet up for sale in various locations, but I suspect there is a lovely scam going on here. My guess is the original seller posts a desirable helmet that is spotted by 'collective' who decide they can make a few thousand Yen. They post it on eBay at a price it is unlikely to reach in the original auction and where it is unlikely to be seen by the original seller. Someone else then spots it and decides to undercut the previous scammer. Now I know at least one of these collectives is a scammer as a pal of mine has recently had dealings with them, buying something that could not be delivered because it was 'lost' in the warehouse. The trick seems to work by them assuming they can buy the item at the original auction for a price that is less than their 'buy it now' price. If they do, they pocket the difference. If it goes for more the 'buy it now' figure the purchaser is spun a tale such as - 'Oh so sorry, our agent has fouled up, or it is lost, or it was trampled on by a herd of stampeding buffalo etc' and they refund the money to the mug who bid and they wait for the next item that might sell in Japan for less than they think it will sell abroad.

Oh what an evil world.

Ian Bottomley

I see exactly what you mean Ian,

94.4 % feedback and 98 % feedback...

Blacklisted both seller collectives. Wont buy with them, ever.

Smells fishy...

KM

All, Further to my earlier rant on this subject, I have since learned from someone far more well versed in web-lore than myself has done a trace on these collectives and finds they all emanate from the same source. None of the several 'antique centres' or 'antique collectives' actually exist. The postings to eBay come from a seller of jeans and trainers who is becoming a very prolific seller of good antiques acquired from Japanese auctions. He only buys of course if he has had a prior purchaser with his buy-it-now offers. Have a look on eBay at the buy-it-now offers and you will see just what a busy little bee he is.

Ian Bottomley

Ian,

Post the auctions. If he is honest, he will be glad for the advertising. And if he isn't...well then it deserves a warning anyways.

Post the Japanese and eBay auctions, I have no problem with that.

Brian

seems somehow equal "way of business" like with those both here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EDO-Japanese-SA ... 578wt_1396

and:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOMOYAMA-EDO-Ja ... 371wt_1396

LOL!

(Despite the fact that i never saw an such high-priced Baseball-everything seems correct on first sight....LOL!

(Hell-i really wonder who would buy such rubbish?-Sorry-No other words...)

Christian

Hi all,

I don't know where this "collective" is based, but it may not necessarily be dodgy. I say this as I do remember last year in Kyoto I used a map of the city that listed a number of antique stores who were part of an association/collective of antique stores (they were marked on the map and in the little advert boxes around the edge was info on each shop and what their speciality was). From memory they had all put in together to fund the maps so that they would all be noticed by visitors/tourists to Kyoto. I think it was called the Antique Centre Assoc. or something....perhaps this is something similar (maybe them?) and the reason you are finding the same object under 2 different sellers is that one is the member's site and the other is the Antique Centre's site?...I do remember that the shop prices were very high.

Please disregard this info if you have actually found this setup to be untrustworthy.

Regards,

Christian, There is yet another version of that 'monkey mask' in which the leather still has some dark fur on it. One of the 'collectives' is displaying it, as the mask of an armour at $35,000. The two you list, at $50,000 and $55,000, are actually the same item, note the small patch of missing paint between the eyes, and have been made into a helmet by adding a shikoro.

George, I take your point but in the case of the helmet I quoted how can that item be being sold by a normal auction whilst at the same time being offered for sale at buy-it-now in other places? As for the monkey, I suspect the second of Christian's references is to the actual owner. His site appears to be a genuine collective. If you click on the 'other items' for the first reference there are 16 pages of high priced stuff of all kinds - the only common theme being the prices.

Ian

Ian

i already did see-reason why i did just post this "exorbitant important item here"-Laugh!

I but have one more-the very hiking "peak" if i may allow me to express...

it´s not that long ago-this Baseball was equally offered by an "reputed" German seller on his home-page...can´t remember the exact price,was but quite identical "reasoned"...Laugh!

Christian

Ian, this has been going on for some time, I and other people have complained to ebay that these sellers are just taking images from Japan auctions and asking an exorbitant price with out actually owning the items, many times the items have already been sold but the ebay seller has not removed the items from their list. Several times items I and other people have owned for months have been posted on their for sale list and ebay will not intervene even with proof that the item has been previously sold using the same exact images. Ebay says that as long as the seller does not keep anyones money with out sending the item they will not do anything even if they have no access to the item they are advertising. I sent several email the the seller asking them to stop this practice and they finally removed the items I owned but they keep listing new ones, there is nothing to stop them and as long as they do not keep anyones money without sending the item they have a green light from ebay. Bottom line is that the worse thing that will happen is that someone with either pay a hugely over inflated price or have their money returned.

I just had a very interesting conversation with a seller on eBay. The description states

"...by the great Inoue Shinkai". This sword is not Shinkai and when I told him so he stated that it was what the registration said and not his opinion but just the registration. I told him how ridiculous that was to state that it was not his opinion when it was he, KATSURAGI that said it was the "Great Inoue Shinkai". I cannot believe the lack of honor shown by some sellers. I have caught the seller Yumigo shill bidding when he offered to sell me a sword I was bidding on after a bidder with %100 of his bidding done with Yumigo won the bid. He then contacted me and offered to sell it to me for the high bid. I encourage people to blacklist sellers like this.

Jim

Jim,

here we are again with "Caveat Emptor"-as the good old Romans said...

Either way-it looks like to be an more than just common practice(as this above example is just an example-there are many more)

I just can say-if there really is an serious interest in an object-do contact collectors friends first(as most times,those answers you´ll get,will be honest)

If no friends-then use this forum here...go to shows,fairs,buy books-study....

!

Christian

Brian, Please forgive me for not listing the sites as you suggested. I hesitated to do so without the owner's permission whilst a sale was still in the offing. I then reflected further and came to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, the seller of the helmet was trying to maximise his chances of making a lot of money by not only auctioning the thing, but also letting someone else put it on eBay at a vastly inflated price to see if a fish bit. However after reading Eric's note it seems, sadly, that I was right to be suspicious and am probably right in my conclusions. So dear members - beware high priced buy-it-now offers unless you know the vendor.

Ian

Listing the same antique item in multiple auctions is not allowed on ebay, period.

The guys you mean are:

the Japanese-antiques-trading-and-shopping-center

and:

the Japan premium trading selling assistant.

If Japonisme-arts is part of that group I dont know but it is likely.

I would advise the board members to check their items for yourself.

KM

Stay shut from e-bay

Stay shut from e-bay

Yes, most of the time. There are exceptions though, eg. dealers who you can ask about the real condition of the item you want to buy. There are just a few, but they are there, like "komonjo" - Mike Yamaguchi. I have recently bought a very nice, papered Naminohira uchigatana from him. This was not a great bargain, but a reasonable price for a sword with NBTH origami in very good condition.

There are some little bargains to be had, but your gain is more of a symbolic nature and they are rare.

Nobody should expect to hit the jackpot on eBay, although I have the impression, that most people do.

In a nutshell, with some exceptions, no sense to buy on eBay, I do agree.

Mike is the exception to the rule. Every sword I have purchased from him has been papered.

There are not many like him.

Jim

Some more info on the collective dealers :

The Antique trading and shopping centre :

User ID Effective Date End Date

Japanese-antiques-trading-and-shopping-center Apr-14-10 Present

Japanese-heart-soul-and-beauty Sep-03-09 Apr-14-10

kokoro-bi-999 Jul-24-07 Sep-03-09

kokorobi99 Feb-10-07 Jul-24-07

Japonisme Arts :

japonisme-arts Jun-17-08 Present

Japan premium trade seller trading assistant :

User ID Effective Date End Date

Japan-premium-seller-trading-assistant Sep-03-09 Present

aucfantista Sep-18-08 Sep-03-09

japon_is_me Jul-30-06 Sep-18-08

It is safe to say that these are one and the same person or persons.

Now you can make up your own minds.

Ok..so how can you make that call? Because one date is the same?

Secondly, it has already been mentioned that a buyer will either receive his item (over paid, but received) or his money back.

Brian

Brian, I make this call because of :

A: Multiple listings under different names for the same item for different prices.

(which should not be condoned by ebay but you cant report it since you can only report the same item being listed multiple times by the same seller....)

B: Negative feedback calculating.

C: The same name in at least two cases.

D: Regular and multiple changes of seller names in the past. That normally has a reason, mostly negative feedback related.

I have been on Ebay for about 8 years, and have been defrauded of my money on it two times in the beginning years, with a Samurai helmet as well as a USAAF WWII flak helmet.

I have learned to read the signs very well due to a few negative experiences on Ebay. That means in general I only deal with US, UK, some European and some Japanese and Australian based sellers. I avoid Chinese sellers mostly, as do I avoid Eastern European, African and Middle Eastern sellers. I check emails I get from sellers using IP and WHOIS checking. That has saved me before when dealing with a Romanian fraudster. I report to the IC3 whenever I come across fraudulent behaviour online.

KM