Seal Joi H 02135

Hi experts,I am interested in a Tsuba from an auction to come signed Joi.The Mei plus the seal are shown on the right side of my pic.On the left side are 2 examples of real Joi pieces with the seal "Nagaharu",which he normally added.The left part of these seals is missing in "my" Tsuba.How do you read this seal?Ludolf

By comparing the seals only, in my opinion, it's not by Issando Joi, but perhaps by one of his pupils. The seal rightmost in the pic I have added is from a forged Tsuba. I have of course noticed that the shoshin seals show slight differences among themselves. If one could see the entire workmanship of the Tsuba a judging would be more accurate.

Eric

Hi Eric,besides the Mei/seal pic there is only one complete side shown on the auctioneer's homepage:look at the pic.Ludolf

oooh!...that's not so nice Not the work of Issando ( Sugiura) Joi in my opinion.

This is an example from the MFA Boston. Can't verify if it's genuine but it's quite a lot finer than the example under discussion and at least shows some of Joi's characteristic shishiai-bori; sunken relief. It is also quite reminiscent of a well known tsuba by Unno Shomin.

Dear Ludolf

I reply to your query not as an ‘expert’ but as an ‘interested party’. On p. 189c of the earlier edition of Kinkō Meikan is an illustration of a Joi mei with a seal identical to the one you illustrate. This seal is described by the author as reading Nagaharu. What, then, do the seals on your ‘real Joi pieces’ read, with their additional, and varying, character?

The only other Joi seal that I have seen is that illustrated in Shōsankenshu, and described by the author as ‘early’. This is on a rather fine gimei tsuba of which I am attaching an image; I imagine this to be a Meiji work by a Mito Sekijōken artist.

Regards, John L.

I cannot answer Ludolf's original question about how to read the seal on that tsuba. The signature looked very bad to me before I saw the picture of the tsuba, but I guess he wasn't really asking about the veracity.

Bumping this up again, hoping that someone else will see and give it a stab.

... and two more (gimei) Joi tsuba to add to the thread. John L.

I'd forgotten that I'd uploaded a few images of other genuine works by Joi :D so here's a link to my Picasa gallery where you can see them They are all viewable in larger format my clicking the little magnifying icon at top right

I think it always preferable to study the finest examples so as to better appreciate what distinguishes the work of the masters from the "also rans"

regards,

ford

I've just seen this piece by Joi presented by Ginza-Choshuya. There's also a very detailed description of the work as well as some biographical material about Joi. All translated into English by Paul Martin.

Very nice topic!

Let me contribute with my gimei!

Giuseppe

Amazing that many of these gimei tsuba stand on their own as pretty nice work. Maybe not great work, but well above average and I wouldn't mind owning any of them. Pity the artists didn't try and improve their own works or let their work stand under their own name.

Giuseppe...nice tsuba, although apparently not meant for mounting as we so often see.

Ford, that real Joi you posted way back is absolutely stunning. More like a painting than a tsuba

Brian

Hi Brian

yes, it is a beautiful work and one can't fault the workmanship but I actually don't think it's by Joi either. I believe this is a much later work, in some respects more refined than the originals but it at least exhibits real artistry. Aesthetically speaking I think the example I showed is in fact more sophisticated than original Joi works. This is not to say it is (imo) better but merely informed by a different aesthetic.

The most obvious give-aways for me is the relative size, ie; largeness, of the tsuba in relation to what would be the seppadai area and the very subtle surface graduation and rim formation. I think this is a very late Edo period or Meiji period work. I alluded to Unno Shomin (student of Hagia Katsuhira, Mito prov.) I see certain similarities. Another obvious possibility would by Ogawa Teikan, also from Mito.

regards,

ford

Cheers to my friend Giuseppe who made his way to here

Dear Experts,

I bought this tsuba last year. I didn't buy it as joi school. Can I have you opinions please?

Thanks,

Pete

Hi,it's probably a genuine work of Joi,signing with only Issan (most pieces with both Issan and Joi).I like it!Ludolf

While I share Ludolf’s admiration of Pete’s tsuba – it is indeed very fine – I fear that I do not share his enthusiasm for the Jōi attribution. In my own – non-expert – opinion, it lacks the restraint and delicacy that I associate with the master’s work and, while the ISSAN gō and the lower seal are similar to those of Jōi, there are also marked differences in their construction. Wide variations are seen in the seals used by the master, but I am unfamiliar with the upper one on Pete’s tsuba.

I await further and more knowledgeable opinions with great interest

John L..

All my examples in my database (all shoshin-mei) show slightly different seals/stamps.If the Tsuba was made by a Tosogu artist other than Joi (in order to get more money than for the ones with his own Go),why did he not use the "Joi"-mei but a seldom used Go and why add the stamp "Nagaharu" to the "Joi"-seal?! I believe,a faker would use the common big-name-signature.Ludolf

I believe that to find the truth in a work of art it must be observed in a  manner that is unnatural for most of us.  Never gather an impression from the whole- examine the part.  First above all look at the qualities of the engraving- this is the most telling part. A great artists work flows and moves like the line from a  brush-effortlessly.  This is the foundation upon which all else is built. If  said foundation is solid all else will stand.  On the matter of authorship- all objects viewed without the encumberances of prejudice, preconception, expectation- will tell all.  A work produced in 1750 does not look like one made in 1850.  No matter how hard the latter persists in its attempt at deception it will fail.

-StevenK

Here's my (gimei) Joi Tsuba..

I notice that most of these Joi Tsuba seem to made of Suaka..! Is that just coincidence..?

Barrie.