Another "Kaneie" tsuba

All,

Home again, and just sorting out the few items I bought and all the pics so I can start posting some.

On my last day in Tokyo, I returned to a little sword shop in Ueno that I had found and got on well with the owner. Nothing there really in my price range, but a friend was looking for a cheapish large katana tsuba for mounting and among the less expensive range of items I saw this one and picked it up for a very good deal. I was going to pass it on to my friend, but the more I look at it, the more I like it.

Of course I know it isn't the Kaneie/Kaneiye but I was wondering if it would likely be the Saga group, another group, or merely gimei or a low quality copy?

I don't have a lot of experience with good iron, and hence the trip to Japan again. However I am enjoying the look of the iron on this one, even better than the pics show.

I also enjoy looking at it in certain light, as the surface seems to go 3D on me in my wild imagination, with dancing surface as I move it and almost as if I can see through the top layer. Very odd to someone who hasn't examined a lot of iron tsuba.

So what do the iron experts say? Bad copy, later Saga or just a lump of old iron?

Regards,

Brian

Edit to add: The difference in shading is my shadow while taking the pics

as eveyone knows im not a tsuba guy but i know whats i like i likes this very much...tell me is goint to be in auction always a big fan of moon and no business on tsuba, very calm, thanks for sharing.

hi ,

Yes i have to agree with you Stephen ,i like this alot to ,it looks like good iron and has a calm feel to it. the geese and moon look welll done .

Anthony

Hi Brian

I think the Bungo is the resident Saga expert but I will share this.

From Tsuba and Aesthetic Study p.61

The Tetsunin school is commonly called the Saga Kaneie school. The majority of the pieces turned out by this scool are signed with a facsmile of the signature of the second Kaneie. Ocassionally we see signatures of the artists who actually made the pieces. The names of some the artists are:

Kaneaki, Iyehiro, Iyetsugu, Kugimoto Yazaemon, Koten, Dosaku, and have been recorded along with a few others. The best of the Saga Kaneie work is either unsigned or with the above names

I also heard that the Aizu Shoami school made Kaneie reproduction work too. Also from the above source Kaneie was influenced by the Kara E school of painting which had its orgins in China.

I think it is a nice tsuba and definetly gives a nice sense of tranquility.

PS Thanks for the Avatar help and is there a Japan 2008 report coming out soon, packed with pictures and happy anecdotes????

Brian,

There are times one has to ask hard question like....................

If it's Mumei, do you think Kaneie ( Saga or otherwise ) or Aizu Shoami ?

milt

Brian,

a very decent piece of work, regardless of who made it. In my opinion work like this ( ie; of debatable origin ) should be judged firstly on it's aesthetic merit. In this respect this is a perfectly pleasing tsuba in all aesthetic aspects. I'd be happy with it.

well done and well spotted.

Regards,

Ford

Milt,

I didn't have the mei translated when I bought it, so I didn't buy the name, just the tsuba.

I know it isn't mainline Kaneiye of course. My intention was just to pick up a largish tsuba for a friend. I am quite happy that it is likely just a low grade iron tsuba, but I am attracted to it nonetheless. From my understanding, many Saga Kaneie aren't great quality and are not known for particularly good iron, so to me I would just like to decide if it is Shoami or one of the many Kaneie groups that worked later. I can't really say this screams Shoami to me without the mei. Saga Kaneie was known to use this mei, whilst Shoami wasn't famous for faking the Kaneie mei. So I am still uncertain either way. However happy to have any opinions at all, and don't mind if it gets knocked to hell

I still like the iron and hammered finish, and scene on it. But in no way a masterpiece. At least it doesn't need patina work :lol:

Regards,

Brian

Edit to add: Have just read Ford's comment. I guess I am falling into the trap that I am against myself..that of trying to categorise things into neat little schools and boxes.

It is a bad habit to develop, although sometimes it does lead to debates or discussions that are very informative and educational, so it isn't always a bad thing

But in no way a masterpiece

the joy of simple taste....(or is that mind )....it is to me.

Have a question on Kaneie I was hoping someone could answer, just out of interest.

It's not based on the particular tsuba, but just in general.

Let's say you have a Saga Kaneie tsuba that is signed Yamashiro kuni Fushimi ju Kaneie and pretty much confirmed to be Saga. Now did this school sign this way to deliberately deceive into thinking it was by THE Kaneie, or did they just adopt that signature as their own.

What I am asking is, would a Saga Kaneie that was submitted to shinsa pass as Saga Kaneie work signed this way, or would it be bounced as gimei?

Just something I was wondering about this kind of "adopted" mei, and how they are treated. As I said, I am not referencing this particular tsuba..it was just a thought.

Brian

acting as " Agent Provocateur ".........that's a hint there.

If you slapped a logo of a bull ( or a horsie for those who prefer a Ferrari )onto a honda, it's still a honda.

milt

"Ronin"......that's a hint there.

I am not talking about some random Shoami artist signing a work with a famous name to deceive. I am talking about a group or school that chose to sign their works with a name used by a famous artist and using it as their own mei. (Ignore this tsuba above)

That then became their standard mei...so would origami paper to them, or bounce as gimei?

Same thing with swords. You have many other Masamune smiths, and some swords will still paper to Masamune, but make it clear it is not the Masamune. Just wondering how this translates to tsuba and fittings.

Is the whole school's works considered deception as an attempted copy of the Kaneie, or did they produce their works to stand on their own (lesser) merits in the style of...?

Brian

Here's a modan day example.............. THE Donald wanted to copyright the name but there's Donald Duck before him, so that's a no go.

But.............. if someone called himself THE Donald and add the SAME address, I can see he could possibly win the court case.

As in the case of the Kaneie, yes, you can agrue there are many Kaneie but add the same address ?

What do you think ?

milt

Brian -- if you had a signed piece which was of the quality of Saga work it would most likely be papered thus: the mei with [den Saga Kaneiye] below the mei. This means that the mei is not of 'Kaneiye' but that the piece is being 'attributed' to the Saga School. Now having said this I'm not certain you would see the NBTHK doing this today as they have in the past. They've tightened up the criteria over the last few years quite a bit. The point is that the Saga school is a recognized entity so it is paperable as such. You just have to make sure someone doesn't erase the Saga part...

Thanks Pete, exactly the info I was looking for. Makes sense.

Regards,

Brian

My understanding of the Saga Kaneiye school is very superficial, and I hope that more knowledgeable members will expand on it, and correct any misunderstandings.

I believe the school to have had its origin in Tetsunin, a retainer of the Daimyō of Higo province, who worked in the style of Kaneiye II and may have been a student of the master. He moved from Higo to the city of Saga, in the province of Hizen, at the end of the C17. Here several generations worked, believing themselves to carry the mantle of Kaneiye, and signing their work Tetsunin. Two main types of tsuba were produced, the earlier mimicking the work of Kaneiye I and II and the later resembling that of the Shōami artists. Many artists, both in Hizen and elsewhere, reproduced such work.

The majority of the work by this school is signed with a facsimile of the mei of Kaneiye II, occasionally accompanied by the name of the actual artist. Some of these latter are listed by Torigoye and Haynes, and include Kaneaki, Iyehiro, Iyetsugu, Kugimoto Yazaemon, Kōten and Dōsaku. The best of this Saga Kaneiye work is either unsigned, or bears the mei of one of these artists. Many of the unsigned pieces had later gimei of Kaneiye II added in the Meiji era – a practice which was extended onto some old Nara work.

Work attributed to this group may thus be one of the following:

1. Saga Kaneiye work, either mumei, contemporaneously signed with a Kaneiye II facsimile mei or with the mei of one of the school’s artists.

2. Saga Kaneiye work, originally mumei, with a gimei Kaneiye mei added later.

3. Work by any other artist, either signed Kaneiye or mumei, and mimicking the work of the master.

Presumably the first of these might be papered as Saga Kaneiye, while the second and third would clearly be labeled as gimei.

John L.

Thanks docliss for information about the Saga Kaneie school. I am new to the Nihonto Message Board I have another Kaneie tsuba obtained from Japan signed in a similar way as the tsuba list in the post and in the same way as the original second Kaneie (i.e. Meihin Kaneie). "Yamashiro kuni Fushimi ju Kaneie" I am thinking it could belong the Saga Kaneie school or if I really lucky made by the second Kaneie. My tsubas is a really nice looking tsuba and it likely the best I have in my small tsuba collection. The color might be a little off because I did the photograph with a scanner. Here is a small photograph for comparison and discussion purposes enjoy.

Dear David

I apologise for the delay in my reply, but I have only just returned from a visit to one of my daughters in the UK. In my humble opinion, the tsuba that you have posted is not the work either of Kaneie II or of the Saga Kaneie school.

While noting your reservations about the colour of your image, the quality of the iron is not that of either of these groups, and the plate appears to be of factory origin. The silver inlaid pine needles (that is silver, rather than iron that has lost its patination through wear, is it not) are quite unlike Kaneie work, and none of these artists produced tsuba of an oval shape. The mei is not that of either of these groups and, speaking personally, I do not find the undulating outline inside the mimi at all pleasing. Both the style of work and the broad ryō-hitsu are suggestive to me of Shōami work.

In summary, I suggest that your tsuba is probably C19 Shōami work, with a gimei Kaneie II signature.

Regards, John L.

Dear David

The silver inlaid pine needles (that is silver, rather than iron that has lost its patination through wear, is it not) are quite unlike Kaneie work, and none of these artists produced tsuba of an oval shape. The mei is not that of either of these groups and, speaking personally, I do not find the undulating outline inside the mimi at all pleasing. Both the style of work and the broad ryō-hitsu are suggestive to me of Shōami work.

In summary, I suggest that your tsuba is probably C19 Shōami work, with a gimei Kaneie II signature

Regards, John L.

Looking at the tusba I think you are correct about the inlay work of the pine needless. It is completely made of silver. Given the fact that for a large part of the medieval period in Japan Kyoto and other parts of western Japan were on a Silver standard it would be very expensive to make inlays of pure silver. In regards to the mei in my original post I was simply trying to say that the mei says the same thing in Japanese as the Kaneie II and Saga School not that my tsuba has a authentic signature of either the Kaneie II or Saga schools. I didn't pay very much for the tsuba in Japan and I wasn't expecting very much in the first place. I just wanted to post the picture for research and discussion purposes. Thank you John for the information about my tsuba was many Shoami style gimei copies of Kaneie common in the 19th Cen.? I still find the idea of a antique fake kind of interesting.

I've got the following Kaneiye tsuba 8.15 x 7.6cm signed "Yamashiro Kuni Fushimi Ju Kaneiye".

I wondered if this might be Saga work? Anyone have any thoughts.

I would say almost certainly..

Brian

Looking at the tusba I think you are correct about the inlay work of the pine needless. It is completely made of silver. Given the fact that for a large part of the medieval period in Japan Kyoto and other parts of western Japan were on a Silver standard it would be very expensive to make inlays of pure silver. In regards to the mei in my original post I was simply trying to say that the mei says the same thing in Japanese as the Kaneie II and Saga School not that my tsuba has a authentic signature of either the Kaneie II or Saga schools. I didn't pay very much for the tsuba in Japan and I wasn't expecting very much in the first place. I just wanted to post the picture for research and discussion purposes. Thank you John for the information about my tsuba was many Shoami style gimei copies of Kaneie common in the 19th Cen.? I still find the idea of a antique fake kind of interesting.

Hi Everyone,

After looking at my post from almost four years ago the only thing I can say what a buch of bull sh-t. I did some much better pictures of my above tsuba and other more knowledgeable collectors have attributed my tsuba to the Saga Kaneie school. In terms of iron it also compares to a papered Saga school tsuba I have. I will post the better photos I did after work.

Yours truly,

David Stiles

No need to take offence. All Kaneie besides the original Kaneie are just BS, if I may say so. Some Saga Kaneie were really good, though..

Hi Mariuszk,

I was not referring to Saga Kaneie school work as BS but the reasoning in my original post circa Jan. 2009. Here is the new photos taken last week. The pine needles are made of iron with a light patina. The dots associated with each needle is inlayed brass. Enjoy. :D

Yours truly,

David Stiles

What are the main pointers that signify a Saga piece as opposed to a Aizu Shoami gimei etc.

Hi Peter,

Good question. I am of the general view that all Edo Period Kaneie tsuba are gimei regardless of origin. I am also of the opinion that not all gimei tsuba are of poor quality. I based this judgement on the fact that there is little or no edvience connecting the Saga school in Kyushu with the Momoyama Period Kaneie of Yamashiro in Honshu.

Generally people classifity the less quaily Kaneie gimei tsuba to Aizu Shoami school. This general rule may not always be valid as I am sure there are high quality Aizu Shoami copies as well. We also need to be aware of the fact that many mumei Ko-Nara tsuba had the Kaneie mei added during the Meiji Period. This makes spotting a real Kaneie hard because some old tsuba have his mei.

Yours truly,

David Stiles

I’ve had this tsuba for a number of years. Obviously it is not a Kaneie as signed but I like it none the less. The carvings appear to be inlayed, is this indicative of Shoami over Ko-Nara?

v/r,

Jason