tsuba oppinion

i went to 3 militaria fairs 2 antique shows and only found a gendiato but at a boot fair 2 miles from home i bought this "chinese belt buckle " for £1 $1.60

can anyone tell me who the maker is and rough age

i know its very worn ,no pun intended, but £1 :D :D

Can't read the mei but a rough guess based on style- Echizen Kinai school

Rich

thanks rich

i came to the same conclusion from the style

nick

I like the dragon. Very nice.

shame its so worn

This looks like an Umetada Dragon.

Refer to this link for a comparison between Kinai and Umetada.

http://www.shibuiswords.com/BITsuba3.htm

The wear on this tsuba appears artificial, it is too consistent.

It almost appears as if someone has used a sander to grind down all the highlights!

And strangely enough it appears as if both sides are equally worn?

Honest and true wear is usually occurs in specific areas, for example; where a hand was rested on the rim (mimi).

Just my opinion.

Still not bad for a quid.

Hi, the signature reads Yamashiro no Kuni Nishijin jû on the Omote (front) and Umetada on the Ura (back) thought it is not a very convincing mei. These are similar to the Echizen Kinai tsuba in that they were mass produced and only ever of average or below average quality.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Rich

thanks steve and rich

who knows when this tsuba was last mounted on a sword so the wear could have been caused by anything .the seller said she found it in her fathers desk draw when sorting out his estate she looked to be in her mid 60`s so the father was probably in his 90`s when he died .it could have spent the last 100 years as a paper weight. i remember many years ago seeing a large collection of tsuba that had been used as light switch surrounds one side very worn the other near mint

nick

who knows when this tsuba was last mounted on a sword so the wear could have been caused by anything .the seller said she found it in her fathers desk draw when sorting out his estate she looked to be in her mid 60`s so the father was probably in his 90`s when he died .it could have spent the last 100 years as a paper weight. i remember many years ago seeing a large collection of tsuba that had been used as light switch surrounds one side very worn the other near mint

nick

Well, I sold it to her father 70 years ago. It has been mounted to my sabre, when I crossed the Beresina together with the grande armée in 1812 and the tsuba suffered some damage there again. It had been sold to me earlier by a Persian silk merchant in 1753, who used it as a counterweight within a silk weighing-machine. The dragon lost some scales in the process there already. I was told, it once belonged to a Chinese firework manufacturer, who got it from a pirate, whose ancestors saved a samurai from drowning near Hakata-bay. This makes it over 700 years old. - How do I know? It's full-moon tonight, my fangs are growing and bad blood starts throwing stones.

reinhard

I see you're still finding those bargains for under £250, Nick :D

In my opinion this is a fairly recent cast steel copy...not sure I'd pay a quid for it though.

The belt sander finish that has levelled the high points and the very irregular, inner rim are the most obvious indicators to my eyes.

Thanks for the link Steve. Some nice examples of Kinai work there but also some really horrible bits that give the school a bad name. Interesting that there appear to be a few obvious cast copies there too.

This tsuba is on the same site and is presented as an example of a genuine cast tsuba that is a legitimate piece. The technical explanation is very poorly informed but the main issue would be the idea that the tsuba discussed was cast in a 2 part mould. This is, according to this vendor, indicated by the seam lines that are clearly visible in the nakago and hitsu ana.

Perhaps a brief description of the reproduction process will make it easier to understand and help with the identification of castings in future.

If you start with a genuine tsuba it is quite straightforward to take a rubber mould. This can be done with various liquid latex type rubbers that are simply poured around the piece and allowed to cure, or in a proper vulcanizing press, as jewellers would do. Either process yields a block of rubber encasing the piece. The rubber is then carefully cut apart using a scalpel. Care is taken to either keep the seam line in areas that can easily be tidied up after casting or hidden in complex pattern

Typically, when a piece is thus embedded in rubber it will also have a rod of metal ( about the thickness of a pencil) laid in so that it touches the piece on the rim and extends to the edge of the rubber. This will form a channel through which the molten wax is subsequently injected. Jewellery workshops specialising in casting use a pressurised wax injector.

Most of the roundedness we see on castings comes from the inevitable shrinkage of the wax at this stage. The seam (also known as flash in the trade) is a result of the molten wax being forced out through the gaps in the rubber mould. What I want to highlight here is that many of the tell tale signs of casting are more often evidence of the wax model and not marks left by the actual metal casting. It simply isn't usual practice, nor very effective, to cast such small and complex items in reusable, 2 part moulds even today when we have far superior materials with which moulds can be made.

Once the wax is made it is then encased in investment plaster (plaster of paris) mounted on that rod I mentioned. That's called the sprue btw. The wax is melted out and the metal pored in. The actual casting can be simply a gravity pour or it can rely on centrifugal spin in some process, to force the metal into the mould. The most accurate casts are generally produced in vacuum casting. Here the flask holding the mould is place on a vacuum machine that is released as the metal is pored in. The vacuum then sucks the molten metal in very effectively and yields the sharpest casts.

So, if you see evidence of a seam inside the openings of a tsuba it was probably cast from a wax injection moulded model and is therefore modern. I can't be sure when the process was developed ( none of my older books on Jewellery making mention it before the 1960's) but pressurised wax injection is a very new addition to the metalworkers technology.

In the interests of trying add to the general understanding of the techniques used to reproduce tsuba I hope my brief diversion from the topic of this thread will be excused.

This method described by Ford has been used for centuries in different civilisations and i had the occasion of seeing some good examples in Africa. We called it in French "la méthode de la cire perdue" = Method of waste wax.

Hi Jean,

in the Jewellery trade it has traditionally been referred to it as "cire perdue" in England also ...mainly, I suspect, because it sounds sexier than "lost wax". I use many other French words in the studio too

Of course this method can use any model made of wax and doesn't need to rely only on an injection moulded wax model. If the model was carved or hand formed (in wax) and then cast, there would be no seam line at all.

Hi Ford,

Just a precision needed, I translate in English : "Perdue = wasted" rather than by "lost", because for me "lost" had rather a meaning of "being lost in the wood". In French "cire perdue" means wax that cannot be retrieved/gotten back. In English, can "lost" have the same meaning than "wasted"?

reinhard

why take the micky all the time?? do you think you are being clever?? some of your oppinions are so off the mark its laughable

ford

there are no cast lines (if there were they have been cleaned off) it is not a modern steel copy i know enough to tell and i do not believe you would not have bought this for £1 or how ever many rands that is

i know the tsuba is of no value i just thought people would be interested .i know of lots of uk forum members who do not bother to post due to belittling replies

nick

irregular lines

it has taken many hits ,from being dropped i would say, on the edge

i have just noticed it has copper eye and brass wisker

still say its modern cast steel ford?

Copper eye and brass whiskers....hmm, well I'd say unless you can show me a genuine Kinai dragon tsuba with copper eyes and brass whiskers then yes, I still think it's a cast copy. I notice that in the close up you show the areas not polished/ground smooth, and in the recesses are quite coarse and grainy as I'd expect from a steel investment casting.

The copper sekigane looks to be proud of the seppa dai too....how would that work then?

The irregular lines are on the inside of the mimi, as I stated. Anyway, looking at the way the steel has been so obviously ground down to smooth it it out and the fact that it's obviously been done to hide the overall coarseness of the metal (because it's cast steel ) I don't know why I'm bothering to try to explain this to you. You'll believe what you want to.

I tell you what, Nick, as you clearly get your knickers in a twist when you get "less than favourable" comments I'll refrain from commenting on your bargain finds in the future. To be honest though, you'd make it much easier if you simply didn't buy such crap. I'd prefer to be able to say something nice once in a while :D I'm only trying to raise standards

...and perhaps I might have bought it for a pound...but only to give to my 7 year old son to add to his little collection.

Jean,

I get the distinction you make but in English, in this use (ie; lost wax) the word can imply, as in French "cannot be retrieved/gotten back". The wax hasn't been wasted really, it served a valuable purpose. Although in Nick's tsuba's case that's obviously debatable.

i never said it was kinai you said it was a modern steel cast copy which it clearly isnt

the sekigane is not raised up

i didnt want or expext favourable comments

i know its not very good but you are wrong it is not a modern cast steel copy and old cast copy perhaps

i dont expect that you will admit you are wrong

Regardless of "who let the dogs out?" the "discussion" of points of this tsuba, casting, Kinai, etc., is intersting and informative to some of us on the sidelines looking for education. It's too bad the sniping, however entertaining, gets in the way.

While the lost wax process is fairly common in metalworking, Ford's synopsis is helpful in application to tsuba making, and the points of contention concerning this tsuba are valuable, no matter who's right and who's wrong.

Colin

hello colin

its such a shame when a respected forum member makes a statement that doesnt hold up then goes on the attack. i am please this hasnt put you off the forum

nick

Ford, you are probably well aware of von Shroeder’s objection to the nomenclature of ‘lost wax process’, commenting in 1981 that “the only substance which is not lost is the wax, which can be collected and subsequently used again and again”. On this basis he preferred the term ‘lost form’ to the traditional one of ‘lost wax’.

John L.

I am pleased this hasn't put you off the forum..

If anyone gets put off an entire forum by what one person (or a few) have to say, then I daresay they don't belong there in the first place.

I am here for the education. Sometimes I don't like a comment or 2. I blame the poster. Would be easy to blame the entire forum if that were true, and if I was a little bit

Deal with it folks. People aren't always going to agree. We are all "big boys" I think, and can handle a disagreement. I do ask us to keep it polite and civil, but when it strays a bit...try and be the bigger person and ignore it? I find even the "heated debates" educational, and have been on the 'net long enough to not let petty things get to me.

Brian

oh dear,

Nick,

I thought I'd leave this thread alone now, having said what I wanted to but some of your most recent comments need to be addressed.

i never said it was kinai you said it was a modern steel cast copy which it clearly isnt

others before me suggested Kinai, I was merely going with the consensus. My point remains though, show me a similar antique tsuba with copper eyes and brass whiskers and I might be inclined to reassess my opinion. As for the fact that it isn't a casting, simply stating that it "clearly isn't" doesn't amount to an reasoned argument.

actually, you did say it was Kinai, in reply to Rich Steins comments;

Can't read the mei but a rough guess based on style- Echizen Kinai school

 

Rich

and your reply saying that's what you thought too.

thanks rich

i came to the same conclusion from the style

nick

the sekigane is not raised up

fair enough...just checking.

i didnt want or expext favourable comments

If that's true then why are you getting so upset with my opinion. I seem to have given you precisely what you wanted then.

i know its not very good but you are wrong it is not a modern cast steel copy and old cast copy perhaps

So you are prepared to admit it may be an old casting, then what convinces you it's not newer? If you think it might have been cast then I think you've said enough. You claim to be able to tell these things so I must believe you, problem is I don't think you find the technology was up to the job in the Edo period. If you doubt that then try and find some other object from that period that was as complex, and small, and cast steel.

i dont expect that you will admit you are wrong

You're doing it again, simply stating something doesn't make it a fact. It doesn't matter how many times you say I'm wrong it won't really have much weight until you make some effort to show why. If I'm eventually shown the error of my ways I'll graciously concede defeat.

forum member makes a statement that doesnt hold up then goes on the attack

It doesn't hold up according to your opinion and you have yet to show why other than simply to say I'm wrong and that it's obvious....a bit arrogant don't you think. I would have hoped for a more reasoned response.

...and my elaborating on my opinion and offering my reasoning and rationale isn't me going on the attack, that's merely a legitimate part of debate.

One final note, Nick, it was never my intention to change your point of view. Experience has taught me that opinions rarely change in exchanges like these. I wrote what I did so that there would be an alternative opinion for readers to consider and to present some new information with which to evaluate work like this. It genuinely doesn't bother me if I am proved wrong...at least I'll have stimulated a much closer look and a more thorough analysis of what we think we know.

Hi Dr John,

yes, I was aware of that objection :D but it's a bit of a moot point sometimes as quite a lot of the wax can't escape before it's vaporised. But he's technically quite correct...that's 'cos he's German . Personally I prefer the French term, it just sounds nicer

regards,

Ford

ford

you are wrong as you stated it was a "modern cast steel copy" which it isnt i never said it had any merit you got personal

again i know you will not say you are wron g

nick

I give ford credit for giving his opinion on the tsuba, I think one should

respect a persons opinion even if one disagrees with that opinion. Thats what

the forum is all about to discuss an item and hopefully learn something..Erich

Hi all, this is a private massage I sent Nick in response to him asking me a question about this tsuba (did I believe Ford's critique of modern and cast)

Hi Nick, it might be. A few points if I may.

 

Firstly, I would not really bother with it any more as it's really not worth the angst, and as you said you paid only 1 pound or whatever, then it makes no matter.

 

I am not sure if it's cast or not, but your close up of the eye and whisker gives a lot away. If it were true Umetada work, then they would both be gold and the signature would not be that chicken scratch style. If it were high end Echizen, then they would be either gold or brass, but not two different metals.

 

It is most likely a late Echizen kinai mass produced piece with a gimei signature. These are about equivalent to Yokohama dock (shiiremono) tsuba are come in variations of quality, from absolute rubbish to almost ok. Yours is in the middle somewhere there. I think it is possible it was cast and then cleaned up but it is also possible that it was a real tsuba, just made fair poorly.

 

The cast tsuba of the shiiremono type have a lot of the time diagonal file marks on the seppa dai, is there anything like that ?, you should also look for a seam in any of the sukashi walls where two halves were put together.

 

I would not take all this so personally Nick. I guarantee you, if you go out and buy a decent tsuba, everyone will be pleased with you. How many times do you see this on this forum ? people getting upset because there sword or tsuba is being attacked and labled a crapper. It happens because for the most part, we are right, and these things are rubbish, and no matter how much you try, you cannot learn anything from buying rubbish. There are plenty of good fittings out there at affordable prices.

 

I hope I am not too brutal, but this is just how it is, I know I get a little tired of looking at all these bargains, and I am sure the others do as well, that may be why they seem a little attacking, but, at the same time, guys like Ford have heaps of knowledge and are just calling it as they see it.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion of your tsuba taken from a bunch of photo's.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

The points I was trying to make to Nick were, It may be cast, it may be not. It is hard to really tell without decent photo's or the thing in hand. I suggested Nick look for tell tail file marks on the seppa dai, cast seams in the sukashi etc but I didn't get a reply like that . As to it's age, I can only guess, and whatever that's worth, I may as well be wrong also.

Seriously, when are you guys going to learn that a $1, a $20 or even a $100 tsuba is all it will ever be, an that is, 99% of the time, junk. Stop buying (god we all sound like broken records here) 10 cheap tsuba and buy 1 good tsuba, or whatever it is you collect. Once you go forward, you never go back. I know, I did this when I started.

Alternativley, you could all go start a "Collectors who pay less than 10 Bucks" Forum

Have some patience. Sit on your hands. Wait.

that's all from me on this one.

Rich

Hi Nick,

I just thought I would add my two cents also. I am a newbie, but prior to beginning to collect Nihonto, I collected mineral specimens for about 15 years. At the beginning, I was the same way about "getting a bargin" and a "good deal". After the first 4-5 years I spent a lot of money and had a lot (400-500) of specimens, most of them lower priced. I began to realize I wasn't very happy with most of them and also spent a large amout of time just trying to keep them all clean. About that time I met a person who had been collecting for 10 years and had about 20-25 specimens, all of which I would have killed to have. It was then that I realized that you just can't get good quality without being selective and especially, without paying for it. I sold most of my specimens, keeping only those that really appealed to me and focused my collecting on a specific area. I have been much happier since. I think that patience is always rewarded and that if you take things slowly you will be able to make your collection much closer to what you really want without a lot of regret.

reinhard

do you think you are being clever?? some of your oppinions are so off the mark its laughable

Since you are the expert around here, you better come up with some examples now.

reinhard

You guys crack me up

I like your tsuba. It does look a bit 'copied' though.

You can find 'gems' out there once in a while. It sure doesn't stop most of us from looking, or 'the hunt'. It's one of the things, that make collecting anything FUN.

And if it's not fun, why do it.

To me, even the average fittings are wonderful art work. Good casting is an art, in itself.

And, the very fine stuff is just ???? that! How did they make these wonderful, tiny things, with no mag. glasses? Did they all go blind in short order? How were there so many masters of this art?

Rich----Your the man!!

Reinhard-----I know, you know your stuff, but you are the master of glib

Everyone else, chill.

Can we see more close ups of your Tsuba?

Mark G

Hello everyone

I think Historian 2 said it all .

But i do think a person who has made it their lifes effort to

no about this stuff and actually make this stuff for a living may know a little bit more than most out their and his opinion should be valued . These forums tend to get a bit personal but that wasn't the intent im sure .

OH happy birthday Ford .fill that sake cup and have a good one.

Chris