takayama prison sword mei

just browsing and came across this mei....now i know emura used to sign and let prisoners sign his work as did nagamitsu......but first time ive seen 4 prisoners do it or so ive just read.....any views please

was the Takayama a prison or a training in the martial arts camp. we have had a post by koichi san on this some where. need to do some searching.

was the Takayama a prison or a training in the martial arts camp. we have had a post by koichi san on this some where. need to do some searching.

was a prison stephen as far as i know but will do a search......many thanks

k morita (Offline)

Forum Family Posts: 107

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Japan

03-15-2006, 07:11 AM

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Perhaps, this sword was manufactured between 1935-1945.

I have not understood what "Takayama-Sword" means for a long time.

What does Takayama mean? , I was guessing that it was a name of a place or a name of the mountain or a family name.

But, I understood that "Takayama" is a family name recently.

Mr. Takayama who was the master of martial-arts(Takayama-Ryu,Takayama school) of naval forces, and he designed of those swords(perhaps, material, length of sword, and length of handle etc,).

Therefore, these swords seem to have been named "Takayama Sword".

http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/ph_toyama.html

this was what i was thinking about, any other pix to share.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... ?p=2951789

link above stephen shows the prison what i am researching at the moment where as your link is the area takayama......i think they are different

the other prisioner mei

I think there is a bit of confusion on the post there, THE Nagamitsu never used Takayama in his mei ..other Nagamitsu's did.

reading the thread a fellow posted, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the swords with the Takayama-to (高山刀) markings with the smith and polisher name marked in parallel are the rust-resistant metal made swords (I wouldn't say stainless on these) that was initially invented by a person called Takayama (a navy martial arts master), and hence the Takayama-to naming on them.

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I still don't see where the prison came it to play with the Takayama to maybe a forge.

sorry for the confusion stephen but i am interested in kanji translation of this sword which was made by 4 prisioners at takayama prison but i then mentioned other showa swordsmiths like emura and nagamitsu who made swords in similar surroundings....sometimes or most of the time i cannot put into words what i am thinking in my head ,

my opologies

Yes id like to know as well, maybe next time Koichi sama gets on.

Has it been established there was a Takayama prison? The only prison I saw there was a small holding room and torture chamber in an old regional government building. I am familiar with Nakamura sensei's ryuha, Takayama? John

Has it been established there was a Takayama prison?

Not that i have found.

Has it been established there was a Takayama prison?

 

Not that i have found.

i found references to ujifusa making swords at takayama prison as well as nagamitsu but i am only going on what google says

Hi,

Shigetaro Emura was the head of the Okayama prison, not Takayama prison. :D

Hi,

 

Shigetaro Emura was the head of the Okayama prison, not Takayama prison. :D

yes i know emura was a director or warden at okayama prison but only mentioned him in reference to prison made swords etc,,,,,as far i am able to google nagamitsu and ujifusa made swords at takayama prison.........

whilst we verify takayama prison existed or just how google interprits it can someone try and decipher the kanji please so i have other avenues to explore

You have every member watching that auction now... :lol:

Brian

You have every member watching that auction now... :lol:

 

Brian

diff search sites did not bring up Takayama prison please add link so i can read about it.

diff search sites did not bring up Takayama prison please add link so i can read about it.

i googled ujifusa and it mentioned takayama prison and a link to a sword he made there....google also mentions nagamitsu making swords there too so thats why i am trying to find out more stephen as on ebay where i saw the katana tang picture it also says its a prison sword made by the inmates at takayama prision...here is the ebay ref number which started my search,,,,the rest of the puzzle like ujifusa just adds more mystery to it.....ebay...... 270324847075

http://www.evalu8.org/staticpage?page=r ... iteid=4673

above link is nothing to do with prisons but its a torists account of their trip to takayama and its prison and torture chamber.....however i do not know its size or importance but id does prove they was a prison there also i found on the net that nagamitsu was also a warden there,

sorry if this thread might be getting everyone in a tissy but i am more determined now to find out more as no one here seems to have heard about it.....

This reference is to the government building that is now a tourist attraction. It is basically a house that has a holding area about the size of the average living room, not a prison in the common sense. I have pics of it on another computer, will access it if neccessary. John

This reference is to the government building that is now a tourist attraction. It is basically a house that has a holding area about the size of the average living room, not a prison in the common sense. I have pics of it on another computer, will access it if neccessary. John

cheers john...if you google ajifusa you will find he made a sword there at takayama prison and they is info on nagamitsu being a warden at takayama prison too....surely they must be another prison some where else in takayama.....how far is abashiri prisom from takayama

I think we just need to go back and translate the nakago, I have stuied Nagamitsu and Emura only have found that Emura worked at a prison. I thinks someone down the line read about other Nagamitsu and added he was at Takayama

There were several other swordsmiths working during the Showa era using the name Nagamitsu. They signed Noshu (Seki, Mino) Nagamitsu, Kawazaki Nagamitsu, Kuruma ju Nagamitsu, Takayama Uhei Nagamitsu

I have been wanting to do some more reading on Takayama To and , will look forward reading this translation. I am thinking there was a Takayama forge, but not at a prison.

Just bear in mind that during the war, there could have been, and likely were, many temporary detention facilities. These might not have been for hard core prisoners, maybe military detentions and overseas civilian detention centers? These would have closed down shortly after the war.

Perhaps these were for lesser than hardcore rulebreakers, and therefore the reason they were allowed access to forge swords. Just a logical theory.

Brian

Edit to add: What about POW camps/prisons? Many of these had a separate section where citizens were imprisoned as it didn't make sense to have a separate prison. I assume there were quite a few of these within Japan as well as outside the country.

I think we just need to go back and translate the nakago, I have stuied Nagamitsu and Emura only have found that Emura worked at a prison. I thinks someone down the line read about other Nagamitsu and added he was at Takayama

 

There were several other swordsmiths working during the Showa era using the name Nagamitsu. They signed Noshu (Seki, Mino) Nagamitsu, Kawazaki Nagamitsu, Kuruma ju Nagamitsu, Takayama Uhei Nagamitsu

 

I have been wanting to do some more reading on Takayama To and , will look forward reading this translation. I am thinking there was a Takayama forge, but not at a prison.

also interested in the translation....nagamitsu and emura were both at the same prison at one time and some say they were the same smith but this was dismissed later..the link i added earlier in the thread from another forum listed nagamistu as a warden at takayama prison.

wether he means another nagamitsu who also made prison swords or got the name of the prison wrong who knows......but then i found a thread on the net which says you must collect a sword by ujifusa if you are interested in the other 2 smiths as he also made swords at takayama prison.

as brian said it may have been a temporary prison and no longer there but its opened a right can of worms now and its a must to translate the kanji to clear it up or send us down another track

Reference for POW/detention centers. John

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/ca ... 0camps.htm

For Steve; Abashiri is in Hokkaido. Lots of prisons were way up north or remote spots. Prison in Abashiri was sort of a work camp. John

nagamitsu and emura were both at the same prison at one time

not quite true, maybe reread this

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nagamura.htm

i scrolled the whole page and never found that Ujifusa sword, Think he made a mistake about the forge at a prison...., just one line in the search does not make it a fact, anyway back to the mei maybe R S will come in on this, as well as K morita san.

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/auction ... 1165718630

hi stephen

refering to which link we read about nagamitsu / emura i agree they are not the same smith and in some links they say they is no documentary evidence that nagamitsu even worked at the same prison as emura but the above link says they both worked there and i can only find forum threads saying he was also the warden at takayama prison.

refering to ujifusa it depends on which search engine you are on...if you type in ujifusa prison sword in google i brings up a paragraph to a link stating he made a sword at takayama prison but i cannot find the sword at the link wether its been withdrawn or i have missed it i do not know....plase type it in google and maybe you be able to find it etc...as said before i can find other forum threads concerning nagamitsu at both prison camps but nothing substantial. this is an interesting thread and i hope the kanji reveals more avenues or other members can throw more light on this subject.

ppl may get tired of our volly back and forth LOL, that was the thinking years ago, now not so, Omura sans web page may have more info...looking there.

we still have not found a Takeyama prison forge, just ppl making the statment.

nothing wrong with a Sunday afternoon dust up

lets see what the trans comes out to be, i have also written Chris Bowin about Takayama to so waiting on that bit of info also.

from this web page.

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_062.htm

Since the font of mei of "Emura"and army commission swordsmiths"Nagamitsu", was alike, some persons of a sword community had the view of identifying both in the same category until now, but it can be said to be a mistake.

1. Mr. Emura is the head of the Okayama prison. He is not a chief warden. Emura was a person who loves a sword. He was the personal character with personal magnetism out of character with a government official.

2. Mr. Emura hit on an idea of the sword manufacture as the Takamatsu prison age in Shikoku of a former post, and educational work.

perhaps this is where some of the Taka mix up started.