for $175 on ebay

Hi fellow fanatics,

I saw the following blade on ebay for "buy now" $175 and couldn't resist - it has a 2 mm straight temperline along the cutting edge and an interesting tang (pics follow soon) - looks quite slim - some idiot mutilated the habaki with a hammer or similar tool - couldn't figure out why.....

Appreciate your opinion ...

Jock

...some more pics....

Can you tell me if this is classified as a tanto or a Wak - and how does one (in such a case) know the difference?

Jock

As I understand it, tanto is 1 shaku or less. Wakizashi is more than 1 shaku but less than 2.

Maybe the habaki was "made to fit" in the shirasaya by the previous owner.

Good deal I would say - 175 is a bargain

Congrats! It seems to be a good buying! Interesting shape, what is it exactly?

nice to see deals still can be found on Ebay. Maybe a boys sword, or a smiths sales sample? Jock your doing good my friend and must have a great patience to dig thru all the fakes on Ebay.

"Good deal....a bargain"

"Congrats....what is it exactly?"

"deals still can be found on Ebay.....maybe a boy's sword or a smith's sales example....you're doing good...."

It is no bargain at all. It needed to be polished properly before telling, but this would cost you many times the amount you have already paid, plus the costs for a decent habaki. Whitish, blurred surface and dark ha are pointing towards an amateurish attempt of "polishing" on some kind of whetstones.

Telling by the pictures the blade looks like the top part of a naginata to me. It is definitely not a "boy's sword" or even a "smith's sales sample". These are terms often used helping to sell unidentifiable crap BTW.

You "couldn't resist". Remembering my own past I can understand you to some extent. What I do not understand, or let's say, I have an idea, but will not tell right away, is why some of NMB's more "experienced" members are easily giving away the rest of their and this board's credibility and are jumping happily into the swamp of online trade and vague guesses again, even encouraging other people to do so as well.

Since some knowledgeable people are still trying to give reasonable advice here (Koichi, Ted, Ford to name a few) their reputation should not not be misused in order to make this board a trap door to the rotten sinks of E and other bays and all the crocs...sorry I meant crooks, hiding there.

reinhard

Hi Reinhard,

Rather harsh your approach towards some of the people who commented above - being german myself I sense your origin might be of the same geographical area - Germans are oten 100% direct without consideration for other peoples feelings - in dealing with the anglo saxon race this can often be understood rather offensive....just a little bit of wisdom that I learned traveling the world and living in different countries.....

I collected custom made knives before I came across my first Japanese sword - a custom made knife has no tempered edge and is usually lacking the love for the detail that is found in jap blades - well a custom made higher grade steel knife is about $400 = no history - no tempered edge etc so in comparrison I believe I bought higher quality for less money + can contribute to preserve some historical piece of art that might have ended up as a gardening tool - surely 98% of the "so-called" Japanese blades on ebay are some form of fakes - but you get the odd genuine one - of which I believe it is worth preserving.

And additionally may I say that some do not have $10k spare to spend it on a hobby and might just choose this road to obtain a low grade jap blade for their pleasure.....

In short (maybe based on my limited knowledge) I do not understand your approach above...

Regards,

Jock

In short I do not understand your approach above...

Nevermind. Maybe some day you will. Until then you better forget about your funny theories about German and Anglo-Saxon "races". They won't get you anywhere. I'm neither German nor Anglo-Saxon BTW.

reinhard

Easy on dudes. Peace and love.

Hi Jock,

nice find. Looks a bit like nagamaki naoshi, or done in this style. Bought a similar one on e-bay years ago (as a newbie ) after polishing it turned out as an flawless tegai blade. I think, this is called Luck.

Well, Reinhard get it on the nail in only one point. Newbies shouldn't do so It`s dangerous out there and without a proper knowledge background, buying unpolished questionable blades is the best way to waste money (discussed many times here)

Furthermore I can`t share the view of Reinhard (whether German or not). I sensed the statement as disproportionate and unhelpfully. Sorry Reinhard. We had to take care not to frighten newbies or other collectors this way.

Uwe

Hi Jock,

I have to agree with you and most of the others here. I think it is a good buy. It may not be the be the best by a top smith, but the investment is not great and you may come up with a decent blade if you get it polished. Reinhold is always this way, rarely does he agree with most people here and he is always very critical. Don't let him discourage you off from continuing to learn and investigate. Not every old blade out there is, as he puts it, "crap".

NOTE: Some posts were deleted and therefore some replies to them went too.

I can see by the end of this thread I am going to have to ban ppl.

Sorry to say this, but I tend to agree with some of what Reinhard said on this one, and many of the points he is making. This is a tough hobby, and if we can't be strong enough to accept criticism, then this is the wrong sandpit. However like Henry suggested, the tone and way of presenting points can easily be far less confrontational.

What do we have here? A lump of genuine Japanese sword blade. No discernable hada or real hamon, nothing to stand out much. No real interesting shape, and a nakago that looks modified, awkward and unsigned. So basically an entry level blade that only sells because it is genuine.

Yes..perhaps a good deal for the price, but it is just Samurai memorabilia at this point. I used to jump at items like that, but to be honest these "project blades" are all just fairly boring nowdays. Who is going to spend $1500 to polish it and get a school attribution?

It looks to me too like a shortened and butchered naginata.

Jock, you tend to jump in with both feet every few months, buying almost every blade you can find for a good price, and then selling them all a bit later. Perhaps Reinhard was rude in his reply, but a background does explain some of it. Still..there is no excuse for rudeness, and therefore I find blame on both sides.

I find it hard, given all we claim to be practising here, and our constant advice to avoid cheap blades on eBay, that ppl still post "great deal" and encourage ppl to do exactly what they shouldn't do. It is a good price. For a knife collector. For a seasoned Nihonto collector, not so much. It is what it is, and even though I collect the bottom level of Nihonto myself, it doesn't excite me.

That all said, another warning. If anyone here thinks they are going to cause trouble and strife at the end of the year yet again...they are going to find themselves banned. And I mean it.

Brian

Now it`s up to you Jock. Show us, what comes out after a fine polish

Uwe

This is the type of blade one should have a window opened. It can then be used to show people the results of polishing an otherwise sorry blade. I do not think that this blade is worth a full polish but with a window it becomes a good teaching tool. OTH if there is no hamaon or hada visible it would not be a helpful piece. The cost of window is minimal (about hte cost of the blade) so not much would be lost.

By curiosity, can I have the picture of the boshi, please (it seems to exist from picture PC140233.JPG) but I don't know if it is a picture side effect.

Hi Jock,

this is on topic I think...in my university days we had a Japanese women's dance group show us Samurai women's martial dances that were actually kata for naginata fighting, tanto fighting and blocking sword blows with iron edged fans (Samurai women often defended the house while the men were away). In the naginata dance...the womans small naginata looked remarkably like yours in shape, style and length...I could not see the tang of course. Yours may be a woman's naginata...just a thought (of course, I suppose the longer tang has been shortened to make it a tanto).

Regards,

George

...a bit off topic but I am always unsure about the (desired) content of contributions to NMB...

Can I ask about and show my lowest level blades and tsuba? Do I decrease the standard on NMB?

I'm also one of these guys who had bought some cheap wakizashi recently without knowing exactly what they are except that they are cheap and inferior compared to flawless fully polished blades. But they still are Nihonto and WYPIWYG (what you pay is what you get)! What is wrong about this?

And if you are newbie you can learn even from such cheap blades:

1) On one piece I discovered gunome choji (like the one one pictured on p95 of Connoisseur's book of Japanese swords) and on the other a kind of sanbon sugi. Now I want to learn more about hamon styles.

2) A professional polish is beyond all questions considering the prices of the blades and the overall conditions. And there is the dilemma: without any polish, the blades are unacceptable but no professional polisher will polish these cheap blades...

And so I make the experience at first hand, that "restoring" such blades by myself - even on the lowest level - is immense difficult (actually impossible and therefore not "allowed" on higher grade blades) -> so one guy less who overrates himself and destroys higher grade blades

(Nobody should bemoan these blades and condemn my attempts when he or she is considering the blades as crap and not worth spending 100 bucks...)

3) Better blades are more interesting!

We are all on the path to connoisseurship - some still near the starting line, some right in front of the first hurdle and some are approaching the final stretch.

BTW - Jock, it is a nice blade!

Jock,

Is the munemachi descent(3-4 mm)? I have been told by skilled man that it is one of the good good way to see if the sword is tired or not.

May we have a pic of it please?

Regards

Andi,

This subject has been discussed sooooo many times here, that i really don't want to go into it in depth yet again.

The short version is:

We allow all genuine blades to be posted and discussed here

Newbies are seldom criticised when they merely ask for advice, as long as they take and listen to it.

Main problem --> Why post a cheap item, and then say you got it off eBay and at what price. Why? If it wasn't a good blade to buy at $500, then why do you think it would be recommended at $100? Is this about studying Nihonto, or buying cheap Samurai memorabilia?

Don't buy cheap "project blades" on eBay and then expect ppl to encourage you. This is the part of collecting that ppl should get past asap.

You don't really learn much from these blades, no matter what anyone says. You learn more from looking at swords in museums than out of polish mediocre stuff that you will never know much about. How do you learn from something showing almost nothing, and without knowing if it is well done, or badly done?

Why has "beginners" started equating with ppl buying cheap junk on eBay? Are ppl really not listening to anything we advise?

By all means buy your stuff on eBay, but don't encourage others to start there. That is like saying "polish the stuff yourself you can't afford to send out for a professional job". Umm..sorry. NO.

Don't fall for the "I am a beginner just buying a cheap sword to start with and will upgrade" since very few over do, and most of those guys will go on to have a collection purely consisting of numerous cheap and "dodgy" blades.

And above all, have fun. Good grief ppl! This is supposed to be a fun but intense hobby. If you don't like advice, then don't take it. If you don't like the answers, then ignore them. But don't take everything so serious that you can't have fun anymore.

My own collection consists of nothing fully in polish, nothing with papers, and nothing very good. But I don't get comfortable with mediocrity and am trying to upgrade, and know where I am going.

Post what you like. Don't brag where you got it and at what price unless you are prepared for the backlash though.

Brian

By curiosity, can I have the picture of the boshi, please (it seems to exist from picture PC140233.JPG) but I don't know if it is a picture side effect.

Hi Jean,

My apology but this is the best I can do - always wonder how people can show details on pics in such amazing ways - maybe I need a better cam....

PC140233.jpg shows the boshi as it is - I turned the blade to change the angle of the light - no better pic. but you are right you can see the boshi on this pic.

Jock

Does it have a kaeri (return) or is it Yakizume (running straight to the mune)?

Brian, I understand what you mean and you are absolutely right.

I only had the impression, that people who show low grade blades are sometimes condsidered to be misguided and resistant to advice.

They do it in good faith and do not want to annoy anyone. And they don't want to brag with it - who they trying to impress with that?

Buy books, learn, study the best accessible blades, save your money for the best you can affort, buy only when you have enough knowledge, don't spoil your eyes with crap,...

These are wise advise from experts and of course it looks like stubbornness in their eyes when beginners always make the same "mistakes" (aka experience). But I suppose it is the natural way: children (and adults) finger the hot plate regardless of what the parents say and so - that's the trick - they learn. With collecting blades - I suppose - it is the same.

This is interesting...and sort of on topic for this sword, but from my experience, it is more likely to be the ha-machi that shows quickly if a sword is tired. As the ha is polished down, the thickness/width of the blade at the ha-machi becomes less than that of the nakago. To get the habaki to slip over the nakago it is then too loose at the ha-machi...I suppose the same applies to the mune-machi, but the blade would be obviously worn out if the habaki was slipping over the mune-machi.

George.

Jock,

 

Is the munemachi descent(3-4 mm)? I have been told by skilled man that it is one of the good good way to see if the sword is tired or not.

 

May we have a pic of it please?

 

Regards

children (and adults) finger the hot plate regardless of what the parents say and so - that's the trick - they learn. With collecting blades - I suppose - it is the same.

I still do it - I have never used a thermometer and I love cooking - but I must confess that my first blade was a fair one, in polish, though Gimei - it is not the same. I hate wasting money on none worthy swords. (It has happened five/six years ago - web danger)

BTW, I forgot to tell that of course I have washed my hands and they are clean :lol: :lol:

My father used to tell me; "Some lessons are best learned the hardest way". You can try to teach folks, but in the end the learning comes through personal choices.

Whether it is a good sword or bad one, a good buy or a waste, is in the end only determined when the sword is properly identified for maker and condition. However, the overwhelming odds are against it being a good piece, and that's where the advice from those that have experienced this fact and really grasp it, comes into play.

My advice to you Jock; Buy what you like and can afford. But make sure your purchases are not blind speculation fueled by hopes of grandeur to be affirmed by folks that know the odds. On another note; please don't refer to Japanese swords as "Jap" blades. The shortening may be acceptable in some languages but has disctinctly disrepectful connotations in others. Just a point of dignity for all readers here.

My father used to tell me; "Some lessons are best learned the hardest way". You can try to teach folks, but in the end the learning comes through personal choices.

In fact Ted, I am still wondering "Can experience be shared, or has everyone to build its own?"

Advice based on experience can be shared. Experience is always personally gained. :lol:

On another note; please don't refer to Japanese swords as "Jap" blades. The shortening may be acceptable in some languages but has disctinctly disrepectful connotations in others. Just a point of dignity for all readers here.

Hello, I was going to wait and present the following request as a New Years resolution for this Board, but since the topic has arisen I would like to add to Ted's request that people here stop the slang use of 'wak' for wakizashi and 'kat' for katana, or any other similar terms. It is disrespectful to the language and culture and only demonstrates ignorance. Thank you for your considerate attention.