Sword's hi painted (or lacquered) red

Greetings! This question may have been asked before, or maybe is common knowledge to Japanese sword collectors, but when asked recently I was unable to explain why sometimes a sword, or tanto, or sometimes a yari's 'hi' is painted (or lacquered?) red. Any ideas as to why this was sometimes done?

Sometimes to hide defects in the hi, sometimes because it is easier than polishing the hi, sometimes because it was the style at the time, and maybe someone else knows of other sometimes.

Grey

Sometimes to hide defects in the hi, sometimes because it is easier than polishing the hi, sometimes because it was the style at the time, and maybe someone else knows of other sometimes.

Grey

Sometimes.....all the above. :lol:

Ok...thanks...those are all logical explanations. But why red? some auspicious meaning to that? I've asked some Japanese sellers and they are also unclear about this.

Maybe to look like blood? Hence "Blood Groove" I honestly have no idea :?

cause they belieave the red can exorcise evil force.

Greetings! This question may have been asked before, or maybe is common knowledge to Japanese sword collectors, but when asked recently I was unable to explain why sometimes a sword, or tanto, or sometimes a yari's 'hi' is painted (or lacquered?) red. Any ideas as to why this was sometimes done?

Yes...

Interesting thread as I've just seen a wakizashi with the hi painted a cream colour. I say "painted" because I have never seen any colour other than red. Any one else seen cream????? I think it's a gaijin amateur's work.

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

There is quite a bit on this somewhere on the forum here. Likewise, there is a discussion a while ago on one of the Yahoo groups.

Theories were those raised by Grey, and I think there was also a bit about this having some significance to Shinto (the religion and not the swords) somehow.

Don't remember how exactly.

EDIT TO ADD: Ah.....Thanks to Barry, I seem to have this archived from his wonderful cd's he sent me.

This discussion goes back about 7 years!

Haven't sorted it out, but the same old folk are still around

Might provide some insight, maybe none of it is true. Worth a read though.

From: Gordon Robson

To:

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:24 AM

Subject: [nihonto] Re: Red lacquer in the grooves

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Hi all,

Don’t know if you all remember this topic, which ended without a final determination as to why red lacquer is used in grooves. I have been going through some past issues of the Ginza Choshuya catalogues and came upon an explanation on their “Token Yogo Jiten” (Dictionary of Sword Terms) page, which states that the use of red is indicative of the dwelling place of a god or spirit. The red groove would be such an indication as well as a type of talisman for protection of the user. Note the use of red lacquer for Shinto shrine buildings. Seems like a reasonable explanation to me.

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From: Richard Turner

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:15 AM

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Hi Gordon,

Thanks, for the response (the question was originally mine). I thought there would be a legit reason for the red, though I don’t discount it as a means to hide things, I thought it would have had more meaningful origins.

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From: Jim Gilbert

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 12:21 PM

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Hi Gordon,

Nice story, I wonder if it’s true. I’ll bet it sounded good when the dealers told it in Yokohama 100 or so years ago.

 

If we take it as truth for the moment, it’s still a good reason to not bother to finish the hi properly if one knows that it’s going to be filled with paint later. Also if it’s true, it’s an excuse for late dealers to fill up horimono with red for sale to the West for extra flash and an interesting story. The various arguments probably aren’t exclusive of one another.

 

Shinto shrines are painted a different color from the red sword hi I’ve seen, though. Still, it might be the original reason for coloring in horimono. Never heard it before... Good one. ===================================================================

From: Richard Turner

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:01 PM

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This popped up today, It appears there are some openings in the bohi, maybe the red is bad group score a point.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2100770958

 

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From: Richard George

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:54 PM

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This piece has been up several times before...

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From: Jim Gilbert

Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 9:31 AM

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Hi Gordon,

Aside from giving you a hard time for its own sake, I was thinking about this red stuff in the context of Shinto and flipping through Brian Bocking’s “A Popular Dictionary of Shinto”. Do you have a sense of whether the Token Yogo Jiten author is talking about a Kami associated with that individual blade, or that the red color somehow attracts or accesses other Kami? It’s rather different from invoking an abstract deity like Fudo or Hachiman for protection.

 

Obviously the relation between Shinto and Buddhism was more intertwined at the time we’re talking about than it has been for the last 100+ years. I’ve visited Buddhist temples with extensive red painting as well, including some with fairly fresh paint. More of a vermilion than what I’ve seen on sword blades. Ask your daughter if it’s the same color or not – as a painter that is, not as a teenager who’ll no doubt disagree with anything.

 

And yeah, it was me who asked why always red in reference to the rust prevention hypothesis.

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From: Gordon Robson

Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:41 AM

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Hi Jim,

Always good to get a hard time from you. The Yogo Jiten guy is talking about Kami in general. I think that swords are considered to have a Kami in general, although I am not a Shintoist and am a bit out of my depth here. The red color would simple signify the presence of this Kami – whomever it might be. As for the color, next time you are in town we should take a red lacquered sword to a red lacquered shrine and compare!! It’s good to know that my memory for the obscure isn’t completely dysfunctional

I saw a red groove and I want to paint it blaack

Guys, I could almost write a song with this

Interesting indeed. I never thought much about the possible religious significance of the color, but it makes sense. I have seen black lacquer, but only once. As for the motivations behind lacquering, here is an example of a yari which had lacquer (yes, red) in the hi. It was chipping and shedding from the surface and the blade needed polish. This picture illustrates what was under the lacquer which could not be seen prior to removal. Overall the piece is quite decent and well made with only a couple smaller ware which extend outside and adjacent to the hi and two or three small inclusions on the neck. When finished, it will again have red lacquer. Although it's not the absolute answer we'd like to have, the reason for it on this piece is pretty obvious to me. It's an Echizen Shimozaka yari that was cut down in to a Tanto in case anyone is wondering, and since most of these were viewed as utilitarian arsenal arms, lacquering horimono instead of polishing them is logical and practical for expediency and cost efficiency.

Jean

dont go opening in Doors...oh wait thats Animals .....sorry flash backs, carry on.

I saw a red groove and I want to paint it blaack

Black...grooves....get nooo, sa-tis-fac-tion.

In fact I had a shoshu Ju Sukehiro sunobi tanto (end of Nambokucho/beginning Muromachi which had on one side a "so no kurikara" horimono with some trace of black lacquer (almost unoticeable) - other side : Bonji

I saw a red groove and I want to paint it blaack

 

 

Black...grooves....get nooo, sa-tis-fac-tion.

oh! wise guys, eh!, yuk, yuk, yuk, yeah, sure, next you'll start talking about things like a rolling polishing stone.

This one has red laquer on the Kerakubi too...

Carlo, that lacquer looks new! I have a spear with red lacquer in the Hi, but the lacquer looks quite old. It's a good question to ask locally here and see if anyone has a different take on it.

The sun is usually painted red in Japan, so there could be some connection with the spirit of the Emperor. Kou-haku utagassen is the great New Year's singing contest from throughout Japan. Red and white are the colour of elementary school caps, harking back to the flags of Heike (red) and Genji (white). (A bit like the wars of the Roses?)

Just had a chat with someone whose opinion I usually value. He suggested that red is Kou-ki na iro, 高貴 being associated in Japan with high rank, and high in value. White urushi never existed way back when, but a creamy colour would sometimes dry to a sort of off-white.

Another (Japanese) friend has just suggested that red is one of the few primary colours of urushi that were available at the time. It would also raise the fighting spirit, he offered. Black would look wrong, he said.

(On another note, the floor of the surgery in Admiral Nelson's HMS Victory was always painted red, apparently.)

Hi Piers.

Indeed it's new, but th restoration followed the original situation of the blade, lacquer re-applied after polishing. Don't know what is idden or not...

Hi Piers.

 

Indeed it's new, but th restoration followed the original situation of the blade, lacquer re-applied after polishing. Don't know what is idden or not...

It looks very good!

This one has red laquer on the Kerakubi too...

 

Hi Guys, when I polished this a few years ago I had restored it to the original fashion as you can see here:

http://www.japaneseswordcollector.com/nao/nao1.html

There were no openings in the hi or on the neck. I've polished many blades that have had lacquered grooves and quite a few had no openings or flaws under the lacquer, some others have had some problem areas but nothing that isn't seen on non lacquered grooves.

Between the fashion at the time, the smiths tastes and preferences, the customers request, and maybe the "used car salesman" tactics of the sword dealer, there are many reasons but in the end it boils down to taste whether one likes lacquer or not.

It should be noted that to prepare the groove and then lacquer it would be about the same as polishing it completely cost wise, so unless there was something to cover up no cost would be saved by lacquering in my opinion.

Regards,

Louis

 

It should be noted that to prepare the groove and then lacquer it would be about the same as polishing it completely cost wise, so unless there was something to cover up no cost would be saved by lacquering in my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

I saw this restored yari on another forum and wondered if lacquering was perhaps originally done as a shortcut to finishing the blade, thinking that a coat of lacquer would be a lot quicker to apply than finish polishing the hi and/or kerakubi.

With your above comment, I guess not.

As a polisher, do you think it is quicker to lacquer than polish, regardless of cost?

 

It should be noted that to prepare the groove and then lacquer it would be about the same as polishing it completely cost wise, so unless there was something to cover up no cost would be saved by lacquering in my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

 

I saw this restored yari on another forum and wondered if lacquering was perhaps originally done as a shortcut to finishing the blade, thinking that a coat of lacquer would be a lot quicker to apply than finish polishing the hi and/or kerakubi.

With your above comment, I guess not.

 

As a polisher, do you think it is quicker to lacquer than polish, regardless of cost?

Depends on what it is - every blade is different, lacquer work does take time as does polishing a carving. There are no solid answers for that question.

Louis

S'funny aint it how these things pop up for a revisit?

(Particularly the rolling stones....... I remember all the words to that song, and thats not a good sign at all. If you are old enough to know the song then you are more than old enough).

Back to topic..... I have two naginata. A rather nice one from the Momoyama and a rather daggy Edo one which looks rather poofy against the Momo Nagi. The earlier one has red lacquered hi and the poncy Edo one has black lacquered hi.

I always understood that the red lacquering was for the Shinto reasons cited above and also on the practical side to seal the hi against possible corrosion from both moisture and the inevitable body fluids that tend to mess up your nice clean blades and accumulate in grooves under battlefield conditions. The black lacquer , or any other colour for that matter, (I have seen a yari with green hi but that probably belonged to a hippy samurai) probably serves the protection side of things but what significance if any does black have in the Shinto sense?

Here is a slightly different take. Lacquer is an aqueous medium and hence will not readily adhere to steel which is hydrophobic. When armour is being lacquered the plates have to be heated to a temperature above 100 C. so that it sizzles when applied. This effectively bakes the first bonding coat onto the metal. Presumably the same had to be the case with sword and yari blades. I can imagine many would hesitate waving a blade over a charcoal fire to get it hot enough.

Ian Bottomley

when I polished this a few years ago I had restored it to the original fashion as you can see here:

 

http://www.japaneseswordcollector.com/nao/nao1.html

Thanks Louis.

I've your image on my HD by the times of the polishing, but I forgot where it came from.

Presumably the same had to be the case with sword and yari blades. I can imagine many would hesitate waving a blade over a charcoal fire to get it hot enough.

I wonder if the heat is not transmitted only to the small surfaces that have to receive the laquer, thru the mean of an hot enough piece of metal,

and then the first coat is applied in quite a rough way.

Refining the bords of the basic coat should allow to apply the following ones on a stable and defined surface...

Seen this Yari many times and has always admire your work on this one Louis

Seen this Yari many times and has always admire your work on this one Louis

Thanks very much John, I appreciate that. I love working on yari, very technical and can be very beautiful if you get the right one.

Regards,

Louis

IanB.

You wrote that in order to lacquer steel, the surface had to be heated to 100 degrees and the first coat had to be literally burnt onto the surface. (I wanted to quote you here but couldnt get the quote thingy to work... New to the forum..... still fumbling).

Would this have made the first coat a rather blackish sort of finish on which the next coloured coat would then adhere? I'm thinking if this is the case, then It might account for the black lacquer finish we sometimes see which is a rather flat sort of black like Yakiorushi.

Keith, Yes, usually this base coat would be raw lacquer without pigment that dries to a very dark brown colour. On armour this would be followed by a layer of hemp cloth, again glued on with raw lacquer. Then you get sealing coats and fillers and finally black colour coats. If a colour finish is wanted, such as red or gold, they are put onto black undercoats because they enhance the colour effect. One very pleasing effect is done in Kyoto I think which involves rubbing through the red coats to reveal patches of black. I've seen bows done in this way as well as scabbards.

Ian

We should try to dredge up some primary sources on this if we can. I believe this is Kato Kiyomasa with a very lacquerish looking color running exactly inside his yari. Is it a different shade than the one the artist chose to use for the severed heads?