Tsuba Kantei Fun

[Henry Wilson]

The rainy season has passed, the sun is out and I have some time on my hands so I decided to photograph the following tsuba.

 

It is iron, perfectly round, 7.2cm and 0.2 cm thick.

 

Any thoughts would be most interesting and in a few days I will post what conclusions I have made on it.

 

Best regards

 

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

Quick but important question. What is the thickness of the tsuba at the seppa-dai and the mimi? Does the thickness increase from the mimi to the seppa-dai for example? Thank you taking the time to answer my question. Once I have my answer I will offer a educated guess about the tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Henry Wilson]

Hi David

 

The thickness across the tsuba remains the same. Also, the pictures don't illustrate this well, but the back is very flat, were the front is worked and slightly modulated. The contrast is quite clear in hand.

 

Regards

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

Thank you for the information. I find this most interesting. I will need to do some research and reply a little latter.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[MauroP]

Hi Henry,

my guess is Ko-Tosho (Muromachi era or even Momoyama). My opinion is based on thin plate of even thickness, elongated hitsu-ana and small open work decoration. I'm not sure but possibly a tekkotsu can be seen on the rim at 7 o'clock of omote side. Difficult to say what is represented in ko-sukashi shapes (may be rice grains?). Bye.

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

I think it is a early Tosho tsuba example circa late Muromachi Period or Momoyama Period using the NBTHK terminology for what is or isn't a Ko-Tosho tsuba. Thanks again for starting this topic.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Brian]

Not being an "old iron" guy...one of the few things I was taught is that the elongated hitsu ana indicates early manufacture, and the thickness seems to confirm tosho to me (even thinner than usual?)

Not sure about the difference in wear on the 2 sides though. One side heavily rusted at some point and cleaned? Is the size on the largish side?

 

Brian

[Henry Wilson]

Thanks to all who have commented so far.

 

Is the size on the largish side?

 

Actually, the size 7.2 cm is quite small, where over 8 cm being relatively large

 

I will post my thoughts some time around Monday, to let other people have a say.

[Pete Klein]

I would say Ko Tosho, possibly refitted to a sword with bo hi with hitsu ana added at that time also a possibility as kozuka weren't in vogue until later Muromachi jidai. 2mm is right for early work and the tagane around the nakago ana shows adaptation.

[cspage]

I vote for ko-tosho also. Yes, common diameters seem to be 8+ to 9+ cm, there are also smaller examples out there. Yamabushi Antiques had one under 7cm once. If there's argument for another attribution, I will be interested in reading it.

 

Coliin

[Pete Klein]

Some thoughts on Tosho and Katchushi tsuba by Jim gilbert: http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/oldiron.htm

[Marius]

My take:

 

Ko-katchushi

 

If it were ko-tosho it would taper toward the rim. It is thin, so it is not Edo tosho (they did not taper but were thick). Pity it seems to have has seen some rust, but I think I can see some good hammer work on the plate.

[Pete Klein]

Mariusz -- I have never seen tapering as a mandatory kantei point for Ko Tosho. Ko Katchushi are characterized by raised mimi (rims), more complex sukashi or both. This tsuba has neither therefore falls into the Tosho family, IMHO.

[Marius]

Mariusz -- I have never seen tapering as a mandatory kantei point for Ko Tosho. Ko Katchushi are characterized by raised mimi (rims), more complex sukashi or both.

 

I did not say it was mandtory :-) Also, not all katchushi had a raised rim. Also, the composition of the sukashi seems odd for a ko-tosho.

[Brian]

My understanding is that, since it is unlikely these tsuba were actually made by dedicated armour or sword makers,the tosho/katchushi labels are used for convenience, and to fit things into those neat little boxes for study. In which case, the differentiation is usually made based on raised rim/complex design.

To quote Jim Gilbert:

Generally guards with raised rims or relatively complex designs tend to be assigned to Katchushi. This is basically a convention we follow out of habit and convenience. The idea behind the Ko Tosho label is that a sword smith would forge a simple iron tsuba to accompany his newly made blade. However, chances are good that a skilled sword smith's time was too valuable to be spent on tsuba, so it may be that these works were made by assistants or by others not directly involved in the sword making process. These others could also be generalist metal workers or more likely by specialist tsuba makers.

To me, that would make this one a "tosho" tsuba by all definitions. To qualify as katchushi..it would at least need a raised rim, or signs that one was removed. or far more complex sukashi work.

 

Brian

[Marius]

OK guys,

 

Let me issue my favorite opinion: it is neither tosho nor katchushi. It is of course... cast

 

Sorry, I couldn't hold back

 

 

But, seriously, Brian - you are right, all categorization attempts regarding pre-Edo tsuba are more or less futile. I have the same thing with soft metal tsuba. But... it is convenient and responds to our (the collectors) needs to put things in those little boxes :D

[Soshin]

Mariusz -- I have never seen tapering as a mandatory kantei point for Ko Tosho.

Hi Mariusz K.,

 

I think Pete is correct on this point about the tapering being not a mandatory kantei point for Ko-Tosho tsuba. Have and had some Ko-Tosho with the tapering toward the rim, no tapering, and some times tapering towards the seppa-dai. Often you do see tapering towards the rim in later Tosho tsuba fairly consistently. This just my opinion form observing a fair number of Tosho tsuba in hand.

 

Hi Henry W.,

 

I love your last photograph of your kantei tsuba. What a wonderful tsuba box. I have only see a few really nice boxes like this before. Are they easier to find in Japan?

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Pete Klein]

Are they easier to find in Japan?

 

 

[Ted Tenold]

Pete,

 

That's how you get to the Ministry of Magic now. The toilets are too busy with Olympic Tourists.

[Pete Klein]

Methinks I shall slip a wee bit of polyjuice potion into your sake in San Fran...

[Henry Wilson]

Are they easier to find in Japan?

 

Hi David

 

Pretty much all my tsuba are in such boxes but only a few have silk bags. I get them custom made which takes about 3 weeks all in all so I don't find them....

 

The hardest part is finding kimono silk that is good quality that I don't feel guilty cutting up.

 

I will post my thoughts and findings on the tsuba sometime today so stay tuned everyone :D

[Henry Wilson]

Thank you all for taking the time to comment on the tsuba. Here are some thoughts below.

Tetsu maru gata maru mimi

7.2cm x 0.2cm thick

 

The motif is possibly of two lotus leaves or petals. The symmetry of the design could hint at a reflection in water.

 

This is a relatively small tsuba with mon sukashi. The back is perfectly flat were the front surface is worked and slightly modulated.

 

The hitsuana is probably a later addition and the lead insert with the cat-scratch finish is new. The elongate shape suggests it was probably originally cut at an earlier time.

 

The type of metal, the execution of the work, the lack of a rim and the simple sukashi is typical of the style classed as Tosho. The tsuba colour is a strong black with brown undertones and the overall rustic appearance and obvious age places this tsuba in the Ko Tosho group.

 

When you come across what you believe to be Tosho, I would recommend that you continue your research by referring to one of the Sasano books, or all them if you have them.

 

Sasano Masayuki did a thorough study of small Ko Tosho tsuba in his book “Tosogu no Kigen” (Origins of Tosogu). He concluded that small Ko Tosho tsuba like this one date to the time when uchigatana were used before the Mongol invasions, and larger Ko Tosho tsuba date to after this period. Before the Mongols arrival, uchigatana were worn by low-ranking vassals called bonge凡下 and the 12th century scroll called “Ban Dainagon Ekotoba”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Dainagon_Ekotoba illustrates such people and the types of swords they wore. See the picture below for detail. After the Mongols, warfare tactics in Japan changed and uchigatana became the main weapon for the large armies and as a result they became longer and larger overall.

It is interesting that previous owners, (senior Japanese Tosogu collectors) compare this tsuba to the mikatsuki zukashi tsuba that Sasano onced owned. It is believed this tsuba dates from the late Kamakura to the Nanbokucho period and is on a par with any of the Ko Tosho in Tosogu no Kigen or any of Sasano’s books.

Below is a translation of the Japanese note that came with the tsuba.

Here is what I think is a fitting (pardon the pun) passage from Tosogu no Kigen. Extract taken from the translation done by Markus Sesko.

 

“The art of tosho tusba

Tosho tsuba display the attitude or sentiment of their wearers and shows something about the melancholic, touching atmosphere of those days. It is this trace of melancholy of a warrior covered with the dust of the battle, and thinking of next morning which still reverbrates in today’s soldier songs, a sentiment which has not changed since back then.

It is the simple and plain, reduced to the essential and timeless shaping which makes the atmospheric art of the tosho tsuba. You might say that their flowering and perfection emerged from the beginnings of art itself, namely from purity, a direct naivety, as well as from simplicity. And the much praised “gentlenss fo the warrior” (bushi no nasake 武士の情け) reverbrates with such peices in an impressive way. It is astonishing that such excellent tsuba are found among works which were made to be mounted of swords of lower ranking perosns.”

 

A few final comments;

 

The back is very flat, were the front has been worked and Brian picked up on this and referred to it as wear. In my opinion, this is not wear-and-tear or any form of alteration due to use. I think it is an indication of how it was manufactured and suggests it was quite quickly hammered out on a kind of anvil, with the back side not getting much attention which in turn suggests it was made for a low-ranking person.

 

Also in my opinion another main difference between Tosho and Katchushi is the type of metal used. Tosho tsuba metal to me looks like the metal on a nakago, were katchushi metal looks like the metal you see non-lacquered armour made of.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Best regards

[Brian]

Excellent write up Henry, thanks for sharing.

The only conclusion I would think needs maybe more thought is the reason for the difference in the front and back. Not sure I am ready to go with the "hammenred on an anvil" theory. Possible, but I think it might have just as much to do with a possible fire at some stage. If it was burned on one side, and scraped/filed and then put back into service, we might also see this kind of result. However it is good example of a very early tsuba, a nd can see why you enjoy it so much.

 

Brian

[ROKUJURO]

In the manufacture of a TSUBA of that kind, there are only very few tools needed. An experienced KAJI would have no problem in forging a small lump of steel down to a flat plate with a fine and even surface (TSUCHI-ME JI) as needed for TOSHO-type TSUBA. Filing may only be necessary on the MIMI for some minor corrections of the circular shape. The slightly 'bellied' shape on the URA side found in some TOSHO TSUBA is not at all difficult to produce, but it is always intentional, and of course you need an anvil for it's production. The outward taper may have to do with the comfort in handling the weapon, comparable to the position of the KO-SUKASHI which in almost all cases is located in a way that it does not interfere with the knuckle of the sword-hand.

 

Fire or heat on a thin TSUBA plate will not cause two different surfaces unless the affected side is exposed for a longer period of time. This has to do with the rapid heat transfer in metals. On the other hand corrosion could occur on one side only if the TSUBA in question was positioned flat in a damp place or on something moist.

[Pete Klein]

which in almost all cases is located in a way that it does not interfere with the knuckle of the sword-hand

 

Hi Jean -- I rather doubt the placement of the sukashi has anything to do with knuckle interference as the hand does not hold the sword in contact with the tsuba and of course your premise would call into question any rationale for sukashi tsuba in general. The placement of any design is done prominent to omotezashi as that is the side which is shown to the world, so to speak, with the fittings agreeing with this concept: Kogai is omote, kozuka is ura, menuki are greater to omote, lesser to ura, gold to omote, shakudo to ura (in mixed sets as sometimes found in Goto), etc.

[ROKUJURO]

....I rather doubt the placement of the sukashi has anything to do with knuckle interference as the hand does not hold the sword in contact with the tsuba......

Pete,

 

thanks for you comment.

 

My statement was partly based on my experience with IAIDO, and I learned about the placement of the SUKASHI from a SASANO pupil, so it is nothing I invented. Instead, I always thought it to be quite logical, the more as I was shown some TSUBA with slight but visible wear or rubbing on that contact spot with the knuckle.

 

Maybe others here in the forum made the same observations?

[Lindus]

Old Tosho...little doubt.

[Soshin]

Instead, I always thought it to be quite logical, the more as I was shown some TSUBA with slight but visible wear or rubbing on that contact spot with the knuckle.

 

Maybe others here in the forum made the same observations?

 

Hi Jean C.,

 

I think what your were shown is the visible wear caused by the placement of the thumb on the edge of the rim of the tsuba. I have never seen results of knuckles rubbing on the sukashi of a tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Henry Wilson]

Hi all

 

Thanks for the comments and especially thank you to Brian for the . I feel .

 

There are lots of interesting comments made on the differences of the two sides. I have tried to photograph the difference but unfortunately can't capture it. To compare it to food it looks a bit like the flat surface on this cut tofu;

 

 

or the bottom side of a pizza base that is in contact with the metal pan.

 

Basically the back of the tsuba is so flat it is as if it has been pushed hard against another flat surface, especially when compared to the hammered and slightly modulated front.

 

The reason why I think the tsuba was hammer on an anvil is because the back side is so flat, to get the sort of effect would require a lot of skill and time using a file in my opinion, especially on a tsuba so thin. I can imagine quite easily the flat effect being produced by hammering on a flat surface.

 

But of course saying all this does not mean that it is correct and the other well considered opinions are wrong, it is just my opinion.

 

Thanks again and best regards

[Pete Klein]

Henry -- I must say, it is a fine piece. I am happy you found it.