MY NEW NIHONTO SHOWED UP TODAY.

[bmoore1322]

I just got off the phone with Jimmy Hasegawa, since I'm in Ohio, he needs me to send him all of these pics I have posted of the sword, and he can tell me more about it, and such for a polish, if it warrants the price or not.

 

I bought the sword from Robert Benson, so it did come from a very well known dealer, that is an polisher also.

 

Brian

[hxv]

Brian,

I have been watching this thread with fascination and have learned a lot from it. Knowing you bought this sword from Bob Benson raises some interesting possibilities. I wonder why he would sell you the sword instead of polishing it and selling it afterward. Coming from Bob, I don't doubt the mei. At least, if he says the mei is shosin, then he must really believe that it is. So, either selling the sword in the current state is more profitable than after polishing it up, or that he doesn't think it can stand another polish. Either way, I would hold off on the polish for now. Just drop Bob an email to ask him what he thinks of giving this sword a polish, as he actually had it in hand to examine prior to selling it to you. He is very honest and will give you his un-sugarcoated assessment. Then, you can decide on what to do with some professional advice. Bob is one of the very few qualified professional polisher outside of Japan and is highly respected.

 

Hoanh

[bmoore1322]

@ Hoanh

 

 

I already spoke with him over the phone, he said the sword would polish up nicely, and that he would gladly do the polish on it for me, But I'm going to wait and see what jimmy Hayashi says about the pics I sent to him, per his request.

 

 

Brian

[hxv]

Brian,

 

Excellent! If Bob says it will polish up nicely, then you are in good shape. No worries Congrats on owning a nice nihonto.

 

Hoanh

[Jamie]

Glad you bought an older blade. When you get this back from polish you will see the difference in military blades and Nihonto ( if you don't already). This will be a good learning experience for you.

[bmoore1322]

Thanks to all, and yes I cannot wait, and so glad to have my first confirmed Nihonto, made by a great smith.

 

 

Thanks, and much appreciated.

 

Brian

[almeister]

Way to go Brian !

At least some positive feedback - for a change !

The examples of mei & hamon given - look the part .

Some damn Good Advice given from the other members . Weigh up initial cost +polish+shirasaya & ask yourself if You would be able to redeem costs in times of sale - If not "See how You Feel !"My first nihonto I still have & I will keep for sentimental value at this stage . Say Goodbye to Showa To for now - You're on the Right Path !

All The Best !

Alan

almeister

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Brian,

 

Don't dream too much, your sword has only a very little chance to be from shodai Yasuhiro. The mei on your sword has nothing related with Shodai Yasuhiro's one.

 

[drbvac]

I thought the same but as all have said - it could very well be second to third generation and he can still hope - all good advice and with all due respect to Mr. Benson - if the polish would have added to the value of the blade he would have done it prior to putting it on the market = even at his own labour being the only cost - If I had sat on some stuff for more than even a couple of years of following the markets I would have been better off - That said if you just want to polish this for your own satisfaction of returning it to some of its former glory with no intention of ever selling = go for it !!

[bmoore1322]

Yes, I plan on having the polish done for myself only, and have no intentions of reselling it.

 

 

This is what Robert Benson said about the blade ;

 

" This looks to be a genuine signature with Kiku carving that was used by the first & secoond generation. A good blade of the Osaka Sesshu school from 1650. "

 

 

 

This is an legit blade, and I'm not too worried about it, because it came from a very well known dealer that has many years of knowledge that most people in here will never have.

 

And who knows why he did not polish this one, maybe he has many swords waiting for him to polish, and did not have the time for it.

 

As I asked him about polishing this one, he said he could, and it would polish up good, he wont be able to get to it for 6 to 9 months.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

all good advice and with all due respect to Mr. Benson - if the polish would have added to the value of the blade he would have done it prior to putting it on the market = even at his own labour being the only cost

 

While Mr. Benson is a dealer and polisher, he is also a good business person and will sell swords that are excellent prospects for both polishing and papering. I know this first hand having purchased swords from Mr. Benson that have gone on to polish and getting papered, as well as knowing others who have done so too.

 

With any nihonto purchase it should always be kept in mind that there are risks involved when purchasing a sword that is in need of polish and getting papered. It comes with the territory. Which is why it is essential to do all your homework before making a purchase.

 

[edit; added] especially with signed swords that have significant names, as a general practice it is wise to put the sword through a good shinsa before having it polished. On the flip side of that, repeating again, for a sword where finer detail is obscured it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a 'window' placed in the sword prior to submitting for shinsa. There's nothing new here, careful collectors with experience follow certain proceedures in order to avoid further and more costly regrets down the road.

[bmoore1322]

Yes, it is very important to do your homework before purchasing any sword, and buying from a very well know dealer, with an great reputation helps.

 

I wanted my first Nihonto sword to go smoothly, and I could not have asked for better service then what I got, his wife Rita was very helpful, made the purchase a great experience for me.

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

Well?

Sorry here,but this all does make no sense here/at least for myself.

This item is obviously attached with an False signature.

Please do carefully compare how the Shodai did handle the cisel.

Equally,speaking relating this point here-neither the Nidai nor any(there were some)the Sandai did such.

What may be correct is the school-attribution(this may finally sort out an professional(!)polish(which obviously seems out of discussion here equally?)-the statement it´s eventually Shodai-is indiscutable(if seriously collecting).

There are plenty of Oshigata available-so to compare...

Ridicoulous conversation in fact!

School attribution may be correct-artists attribution certainly NOT!

(and No-he had not an bad day when ciseling this..Laugh!)

 

Christian

[Veli]

Equally,speaking relating this point here-neither the Nidai nor any(there were some)the Sandai did such.

 

Christian, I agree with you that I think this is not signed by the shodai. But, without seeing the references for nidai and sandai, I would greatly hesitate to call this gimei; the mei is has some similar characteristics and has correct placement in respect to mekugiana; nakago jiri, maybe even yakiba seem right. Do you have any examples of nidai/sandai signatures? They would greatly benefit this discussion.

 

 

 

BR, Veli

[christianmalterre]

Dear Veli,

 

that´s not that hard-here so to begin some links,you may find many more just by googeling...

 

http://www.nihonto.com/abtartyoshihiro.html

http://www.to-ken.com/swordregister/No36.htm

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/K9305_W6623_E.htm

http://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/meis ... c&page=256

 

Oshigata are depicted in several publications,some more,in some of the TBJ´s,Rei Magazines,Ginza Chochuya Magazines...

(I but certainly will not browse them all now!)

 

This is an pretty known smith,an pretty known school,and an pretty surched for style-such,i am very confident-one of the collectors here being more into this school-may find sooner...

If not-let me know...

 

And here for clearifying some eventually occuring questions-i just do allow me so to recapitulate some Text:

(You but do find this all Online-so no magic here...)

 

Shijo Kantei No 645 (October issue)

 

Answer and Discussion for Shijo Kantei To

645 ( in the October issue). The answer is a katana by Bitchu no kami Tachibana Yasuhiro

 

This blade has a normal mihaba, and the width at the moto and saki are different. There is  a very shallow sori and chu-kissaki, from these characteristics, we can judge this as a Kanbun shinto katana. This sword has midare utsuri, and a gorgeous choji hamon, but the shape is as seen, and the shinogi ji has masame hada, and the boshi is komaru. From these characteristics, this is not an old Bizen katana, like Ichimonji, and it is more likely to be a Shinto period Ishido school katana. The modern Ishido school had branches in Edo, Kyoto, Osaka, Kishu, and Fukuoka, and each branch school had an original style and produced well made blades. Among these schools, a long yakidashi at the koshimoto is an important  characteristic for the Kishu Ishido school. This hamon at the koshimoto shows a slight midare pattern which is different from usual pattern, but  if this part were suguha, it would be a typical Kishu Ishido yakidashi.  the Kishu Ishido school’s yakidashi yakihaba  (width) are not an even suguha, and towards the upper part of the yakidashi section, the width becomes wider, and this katana shows this feature. Also, the Kishu Ishido school choji midare hamon have a wide hamon, as seen on this katana, and often the top of the hamon reaches the shinogisuji. At the same time, each choji is narrow, and entire hamon is smaller,  and has a tight nioiguchi, and the hints mentioned these characteristics. The Kishu Ishido boshi are straight with a komaru, or are midarekomi, and often have a long return, like on this katana. They can often have frequent muneyaki. Among the Kishu Ishido smiths, Yasuhiro has more work left today. His nakago tips are iriyamagata, and on the ura under the habaki there is a mon, and from these characteristics, the Bitchu-no-kami Yasuhiro nameis suggested. Most of the people voted for Yasuhiro, and besides his name, a few people voted for Tosa Shogen Tameyasu and Mutsu-no-kami Tameyasu who are also Kishu Ishido school smiths. These smiths made choji midare hamon, and it is difficult to judge distinctively between their styles. In particular, Tosa Shogen Tameyasu has katana with mon on the omote side, so these names are treated as almost correct answers. Tosa Shogen Tameyasu has very few blades, and Mutsu-no-kami Tameyasu’s nakago jiri are kurijiri. Beside these, a few people voted for Unju Korekazu. As a Shinshinto smith, his mihaba are normal or slightly wide, and his kissaki are chu-kissaki or long chu-kissaki, which are common shapes. A choji midare hamon is his strong point, and a few blades have an Aoe-mon; so from these characteristics, people may have voted for him. Korekazu’s shapes are wide but his work show a thick kasane, and many of them have a narrow shinogi-haba which often are seen in Shinshinto blades; his jitetsu is a tight ko-itame and can become a become muji-hada type, and are often mixed with nagare hada. His early choji hamon, have narrow clusters, and tops are not round; there is a tight and strong nioiguchi, similar to Chounsai Tsunatoshi and Koyama Munetsugu. Usually his choji in each cluster are thick, the tops are large and round, and more likely to be similar to gunome midare hamon. There are dense nioi, dense nie, and frequent kinsuji and sunagashi. In addition, Korekazu has very few Aoi-mon blades, so please pay attention to these details.               

    

 Explanation and provided by Hinohara Dai.                    

[almeister]

Perhaps , more dimensions of the blade Brian ?

Including the "Bare Weight "of the blade !

As a general rule - the way I know it , generally the older the blade - the lighter the blade . eg - most koto I've seen are generally lighter than the shinto era or modern blades .

Just a thought ?????

Cheers

Alan

almeister

[Jean]

Alan,

 

Unfortunatelly, it is not as simple as this. You should weight Nambokucho Blades.

 

My Tametsugu and Naoe Shizu with 66/67 cm Nagasa weight tons ....

[almeister]

Totally Understood Jean & Thanks !

It was just a suggestion - as Brian posted : length 21 inch -overall ? (obviously wakasashi) I thought perhaps if he went into more detail - it may help the other members -( Appreciating the fact that everyone is viewing this via "fair" quality photos ) more try & time the era of the blade . As it stands - it looks as though everyone is just grasping at straws/guessing/arguing - however , this in itself breaks boredom ! . Brian probably needs to consider sending it to Shinsa - however would it be advisable to send a blade like this to Shinsa in its' current condition ?- totally understanding that "MEI" is quite legible - however many debates happening with regards to the actual Ken itself - could it be considered an indecisive certificate as well ?

Nevertheless , Brian - keep your hands up & keep swingin !

You're on the Right Path Now !

Wakasahi are good for hallway/toilet combat - I truly do love the Katana/Long sword - The ultimate hand held weapon "without gunpowder" - My opinion only !

Thanks Guys !

Alan

almeister

[bmoore1322]

I received the email back from Jimmy Hayashi, he looked over the pics, and he said it is an second generation, that the signature if correct, and the sword would polish up fine, and that he would gladly do the polish for me.

 

This confirms what Robert Benson told me that it the blade was either first, or second generation.

 

That's two very well known sword polishers that have said the sword, and signature are legit.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Very good.

 

Now if you intend one day to sell it, have it pass shinsa and then polish.

 

Shinsa will validate the signature, if rejected, then don't have it polish or have first the signature removed, pass shinsa and according to the result have it polished.

[bmoore1322]

After I get it polished by Jimmy Hayashi, I do plan on sending to have the papers done on it, buy this takes a lot of time from what I have been reading, but it will be well worth it on the long run.

 

I plan on keeping this one for awhile, and I now see what everyone means about true Nihonto's and Showa Era swords, I doubt I will be buying more Showa era swords.

 

I know several people were saying that the signature was fake, and to have two reputable collectors, polishers like Robert Benson, and Jimmy Hayashi confirm that it is legit should put a stop to the whole fake signature thing.

 

Thanks

Brian

[hxv]

After I get it polished by Jimmy Hayashi, I do plan on sending to have the papers done on it, buy this takes a lot of time from what I have been reading, but it will be well worth it on the long run.

 

Brian,

Jean is suggesting just the opposite course of action - a far less expensive approach should the signature turn out to be gimei.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[bmoore1322]

@ Hoanh

 

 

That is why I'm going to send it to Jimmy Hayashi, he said the signature looks like an second generation, and I would think if anyone in the country, he would be one to send it off to.

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Thanks to all, and yes I cannot wait, and so glad to have my first confirmed Nihonto, made by a great smith.

 

 

Again, don't dream too much, Yasuhiro is not a big name, he is rated chu-jo by Fujishiro (Chu-jo is just above the medium leve)l and his followers are only rated chu (medium level) which is the lowest level rated by Fujishiro. And i repeat this sword is very likely made by the second or later generation, but not by he fisrt one.

 

 

 

Jean,

 

Vu ton gabarit, pour toi une plume pèse une tonne :lol:

[bmoore1322]

@ Jacques

 

 

Yes, I know the sword is second generation, and this being my first Nihonto, that does not bother me, as I have always owned Showa Era swords.

 

Am I excited, well of course I am, how was you on your first Nihonto purchase ?

 

Brian

[Ron STL]

It has been interesting following this subject and Brian, I must compliment you for your logic with regards to the opinions of Bob Benson and Jimmy Hayashi. Will all this advice being thrown at you, you did not panic. And yes, I do remember the thrill of finding my first "real" sword and to realize it survived 350+ years! A wakizashi signed Rai Kunimitsu, it was in reality an early Shin-to of Osaka origin, but I loved it. Since you are new into this world of the older blades, best advice is to see (and handle if possible) as many in-polish, high quality swords as possible. The upcoming San Francisco show will have many such swords like that.

 

One comment about having shinsa before polishing, I would say that is a good idea "if" the sword is not totally accepted as "as signed," if a signed sword. Thinking back, almost all of my polished swords were polished first, then put through shinsa, but I had the advice and opinion of somebody who had real knowledge of swords, John Yumoto in the early days, Tanobe san, Benson and after years of studying, I came to pretty well (definitely not totally) came to trust my own judgement as to what is a good signature and perhaps more important, what is high quality jigane and nie/nioi hataraki. And...after all those years I still get excited with handling a quality sword. Just chit-chat...

 

Ron H.

[Jean]

FYI, Jacques was telling me that due to my frame, a feather for me should weight a ton.

 

 

To your question about my frame, Jacques, You can consider that I am 1,68m tall for 80 kgs and still able to lift curently 50kgs weights. You should not try to venture in this field. :D

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Yeah Jean...Compared with you i'm a puny

[drbvac]

Glad it worked out for you Brian - good exercise for all concerned and if you do recall even those of us questioning the signature were actually saying that it did NOT match the oshigata for the first generation smiths = so we weren't too far off >!

[bmoore1322]

Yes, It is second generation, which is great for me, as it could not have worked out any better for me, and it does help that I did buy my first Nihonto from a very reputable dealer as Robert Benson is, and also that Jimmy Hayashi looked at it and said the same thing about it, and that he said it would polish up fine, to me that is just perfect for my first purchase.

 

Yes, reading the books, listening to others in here, and reading what everyone post in here also really helps big time.

 

Thank you for the great advice.

 

Brian