Another Possible Yagyu Tsuba....

[Soshin]

Here are some photos of a new possible Yagyu tsuba to my collection that I think was made by the Ono school of Owari. The overall size is 6.8 X 6.6 cm the rim thickness is 5.0 mm. The design is of a shrine gate and fence. The original owner was thinking it was a work of the Ono school from Owari and a possible Yagyu tsuba. The rim shows many lamination folds and a few tekkotsu. The patina color is a wonderful deep glossily blackish-brown color. I really like the design of this little tsuba. At some point in the future I would like to submit it for shinsa. Let me know if photos of the rim would be helpful. Feel free to comment and ask any questions.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just wanted to post some additional photos of tekkotsu (iron bones) and observable seams all along the rim. The more I look at this tsuba iron and patina color makes me think Owari. I have not found a Ono tsuba with a design as naturalistic as this tsuba but have found very similar Yagyu tsuba. Most of the Yagyu tsuba incorporated a shrine gate with ocean waves. Comments, objections, and questions welcome.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[christianmalterre]

No Yagyu Iron-No Yagyu stilism-Such..No Yagyu Tsuba(in classical sense)

Maybe an late Edo "Revival" in esteem of some elements loaned by the Norisuke-Group...

Funny piece however...

 

Christian

[Marius]

David,

 

Owari tsuba have beautiful purplish-black colour. Hard to say from the picture if that is the case here. As for tekkotsu - I am not sure if one irregularity in the rim can be classified as tekkotsu. An interesting tsuba, nonetheless.

[Soshin]

Hi Christian and Mariusz K.,

 

Thanks for the information. Found a few Yagyu and Ono tsuba with similar but often more abstract designs the texture of course as Christian pointed out doesn't match what you would see in typical Yagyu tsuba. The forge seams along rim as well as the sukashi are very apparent something you do see in some Yagyu tsuba. Mariusz also pointed out an important point that tekkotsu are few along the rim and the tsuba has none on the surface of the plate. The ones that are there appear to have been hammer down strangely by the tsubako and are lenticular in shaped. I have seen this before in another Ono tsuba from the same old collection now owned by Henry W.

I am thinking now that is this likely a late Ono school tsuba or a work of the Futago Yama school lead by Norisuke located in Owari. Here is a photo of the tsuba taken with my Iphone under natural sunlight without flash.

 

P.S. One thing I like about the tsuba is that it matched well with one of my vacation photos in Japan. Check it out here: http://dastiles1.wix.com/reflections-#!about_me/c1va9.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Kevin Adams]

David, would you be so kind as to post some closer photos of the forge seams you're describing? I can't see anything from the existing photos...

 

Interesting piece - there's something very homogeneous about the steel texture in these photos, and the photos on Grey's site... I'll have to hit the books when I get home from work, but my first impression is that I would have expected a more obviously forged steel skin on a Yagyu tsuba. The lines and corners in this tsuba's construction are very crisp, and the seppa-dai is more angular than on examples that I've seen, which have tended to be much rounder on the ends. I would agree that this a much later copy of a Yagyu-esque design, but how much later is the question...

[Soshin]

Hi Kevin,

 

Nice to hear from you. Here are the photos I did with my Olympus DSLR camera. The rim is also characteristically rounded-square shaped often found in Owari tsuba. You can get an idea of the forge seams exposed along the rim. They are also present along the inside surfaces of the sukashi as well but are difficult to photograph. Sasano in his first book had a Ono tsuba dated to the late Edo Period. I wonder if my tsuba can also be classified as such.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ed]

Looking at your photos, the tsuba appears burnt, though after looking at your others they all have the same unnatural appearance. Perhaps that is just a lighting/photography issue, as the added ones of the rim look a little more natural. You may try a darker background/different lighting as your camera seems to be picking up on brightness of the background instead of the tsuba.

 

No offense but I personally see no Yagyu characteristics in your tsuba. I have included a few quick photos of Yagyu examples to give you a better idea of what yagyu look like. These were shot quickly so excuse the focus and off lighting.

[Soshin]

Hi Ed,

 

Thanks for the wonderful examples of Yagyu tsuba. I might want to change my background in my photots. No offense is taken I purchased the tsuba at a low price because I like the design of the shrine gate and it matched my vacation photo from Japan. It maybe late Ono but not Yagyu or Futago-Yama school. As I once had a papered tsuba from that school. The design is well done and forge of the plate is good I might submit it to a shinsa at some point to learn more.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[christianmalterre]

Ahhhh!

Those Tsuba ARE Yagyu!

(Thank you!)

 

I think-it will be much easier for you David -so to focus yourself on such exemplaires,buying in future only such exemplaires,studying the essential literature,calm down in purchasing EVERYTHING wich looks maybe ?Nice? in your´s actual eye...

Do invest into literature,travel costs so to see good exemplaires of Tsuba,try to meet serious collectors....

 

Very hearthly wishing you this-Me

Of course-never forget an good Bordeaux or some -LOL!

 

Christian

[ROKUJURO]

.......You can get an idea of the forge seams exposed along the rim. They are also present along the inside surfaces of the sukashi as well......

David,

 

Being a smith myself, I have never heard about 'forge seams' except in 'drop forged' items (tools) which means they were press-molded in an industrial production process. If you should find any kind of 'seams' in a TSUBA, this could well be hints for a cast TSUBA.

 

TEKKOTSU is definitely not a 'seam' but in all probability a sign of inhomogenous steel base material. It shows up in the chemical treament after the forging process. If you really find forged down TEKKOTSU on a TSUBA then this must have been made after the manufacturing process, and certainly not by the TSUBAKO himself.

 

We have been discussing this subject here in the forums.

[Curran]

I have been away for a while and will continue to be away as I deal with business / family issues. This is just a quick drop in, and forgive me if I don't reply to any posts.

 

Ed has posted some excellent true early and mid period Yagyy tsuba. I suspect he took these photos many years ago at the San Fran exhibit? It took me years to find a good mid-period Yagyu tsuba for my little collection. See 1 or 2 early period such as the Bamboo ones Ed has photographed and handle them, and you won't confuse other tsuba for them. See or handle one or two, and you have an education.

 

*** Early period Yagyu tsuba have a very distinct multiple layer forging in them. I must strongly disagree with Rokujuro's comments. *** Who knows why or how this is, but it is very important strong kantei point. Even the most brilliant Norisuke copies don't get this aspect right.

 

True early period Yagyu are extremely valuable and expensive ($10000 to $30000). They may not be your cup of tea, but take any opportunity you have to see them. Mid period are more in the $2000 to $10000 range depending upon design+condition and may lack the distinct multiple layer folding, but still the distinct grain iron is such that you will never confuse them with kodai Yagyu to be found. They are much much much more common and are worth $750 to $2000. An example of Kodai Yagyu is here: http://www.nihonto.com/11.2.09.html

 

Just my opinion: 1 early period, for every 5 to 10 mid period, to every 50 kodai yagyu.

Good early period Yagyu are rare, rare, rare. Most you see in books are Mid-period, or low end of 1st period. Many of those in the European NBTHK book strike me as middle period, and not even particularly nice examples.

 

This tsuba for discussion might be kodai Yagyu, but probably it is just something else.

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

Thanks for the reply and good summary. I think Jean C. means well but is mistaken in this regard lamination folds along the rim as a sign of cast iron production. I think this tsuba in question would fit into the other but likely Owari category. I already have one tsuba in my collection that I think is Ko-dai, Yagyu with a nice Sai-Hai theme. At some point in the future I will like to submit it for shinsa. In regards to the 1st era Yagyu tsuba from the early Edo Period you are completely correct. They are extremely rare and would be nice to see in hand at some point in the future but is not my cup of tea in terms of actually having them in my collection. Take care and I hope all goes well.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[ROKUJURO]

.....I must strongly disagree with Rokujuro's comments.....

Curran,

 

please be so kind as to explain what you mean. I am capable to differentiate between visible lamination in a steel, TEKKOTSU and a seam caused by casting in a mold. I can reproduce these effects in my forge. But there is no such thing as a 'forge seam', and that is what I wanted to point out.

[Soshin]

Hi Jean C.,

 

I used the incorrect term in my original post that you quoted. I was meaning lamination fold caused by the tsubako using three layers of two different types of iron. These lamination folds should not be confusioned with a casting seam and are a important kantei point for Yagyu tsuba. These lamination folds are not related to tekkotsu but Yagyu tsuba often also them as well.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

Jean,

 

I am thinking more in terms of kantei.

Technically "forge seams" is probably not be the correct term to define what goes on in a 1st period Yagyu along the edge.

Maybe Ford H. (hardest working man now that James Brown is Dead), can comment specifically. He knows best, and I have seem him achieve a *slightly* similar result.

 

For now I will simply call them "filo crust layers". ON the first tsuba Ed listed, I am willing to bet $500 that they are very distinct.

When I own a 1st period Yagyu tsuba and get to study it for a period of time, then I can tell you what it is...

 

For now I can only tell you what it looks like. I never see it anywhere else. Even the best Norisuke copies of Yagyu are not the same.

If I have time this week, I will get out the best books I have on it and see if they explain it.... now that you have gotten me curious what it is exactly.

[pcfarrar]

Here are some photos of a new possible Yagyu tsuba to my collection that I think was made by the Ono school of Owari.

 

Just noticed a similar tsuba on Yahoo. Not sure if they give an attribution, but its in far worse condition than yours:

 

http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... t277294259

[Soshin]

Dear Peter F.,

 

Thanks for the link. It does look very similar to mine but I agree my tsuba is in much better condition. It might have been made in the same work shop as my tsuba in the Edo Period. The auction text does not saying anything about Yagyu but it does state Edo Period.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[ROKUJURO]

David,

 

did you notice the price?

[Thierry BERNARD]

David,

 

did you notice the price?

 

low but 3 days left before the end of the auction!!

[Soshin]

Dear Jean et al.,

 

Thanks for the notice. I am not really interested in collecting tsuba with such a similar design. I want to keep my collection relatively small will only nice too great pieces all in excellent condition. The tsuba in the auction I would likely get it in hand and start to rub it with some bone and a cotton rag and have it collapse into rusty fragments. The rim looks heavy pitted by rust. I also find it interesting that the nakago hitsu-ana has not been altered.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles