Introduction

[Red Anjin]

Hi,

I thought I would take a minute and introduce myself since I hope to be a regular on this site in the future.

 

My name is Josh, I'm a 33 yr old Naval Officer. About a year ago I bought John Yumoto's book (A handbook) and since then I've bought 4 others including Sato's The Japanese Sword.

 

I've been studying aikido off and on since I was in college. I hope to move back to San Diego in the next few months and start training seriously again.

 

Through no fault of my own I'm a dedicated Japan-o-phile and have a deep love and respect of bushido and the warrior spirit.

 

So far I've resisted the urge to "get it NOW" and have only bought a few f/k sets, individual koshira, and a few prints.

 

I view the swords as not only a fantastic piece of art, but a weapon of unsurpassed efficency and investment. I've been toying with the idea that I should start out small, in the event that I make a mistake and overpay, since I have very little knowledge of smiths, who is valuable and what to pay for anything. Of course a wise investment is a wise investment, regardless of the entry cost. And I'm not afraid to pay a lot for something of historical significance, as long as I'm not overpaying.

 

I've decided my first weapon should have NTBHK papers. I'm also less interested in modern pieces (Gendai) as I want something with history to it. I'm partial to weapons in Koshirae, but I'm not completely opposed to shirasaya. I am, after all, looking for a weapon, not decoration.

 

I did see this item that Stephen highlighted

 

http://www.nihonto.us/TAKAHASHI%20NAGANOBU%20KATANA.htm

 

and think it might be a good place to start. I've also been spending a lot of time on the aoi-arts website and have selected a few that caught my eye. I was wondering if someone could comment on their thoughts to these weapons.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/ken/05177.html

This one I like because of its buddhist connection and the uniqueness of the ken. I'm concerned of its ability to hold value over time though, especially since it is unsigned and has no papers.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06004.html

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/04157.html

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06199.html

This one is less expensive than the top two and has been slightly reduced.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/06460.html

 

Ok, more then enough, I think you get the idea. The more I look at these though, the more I think I should move on the one Stephen posted. I'm amazed at how many of these are on the market. Obviously "there is always be another one" is true.

 

Thanks in advance and I look forward to spending more time here.

 

Cheers,

Josh

[rkg]

Josh,

 

I think I've managed to make pretty much every mistake there is when it comes to buying nihonto, so I thought I'd take the time to reply to this.

 

Let's see, where to begin...

 

First, which books do you already have? Pick up Nagayama's if you

haven't already...

 

I used to think it was terribly important to go buy a small fortune in books and study a lot before buying your first piece - I no longer think this is as important as getting to look at a number of swords and discussing them with third party(ies) that are not going to try and make money off selling the pieces you are lookg at to you.

 

For that reason I'd suggest attending a sword show or 10 before buying a piece instead, preferably with some "sword buddies" (as my wife seems to keep calling my friends who collect) and really look at some pieces, learn about handling and what various activities/problems look like, what pieces make your jaw drop, etc.,. You can also join the NBTHK and attend their exhibits/kantei

competitions at the various shows - they usually have some pretty good pieces to study.

 

Second, I feel that I should mention that most edo or earlier swords have probably earned their retirement, which is why they tend to get put in shirasaya separate from their original koshirae - there are a number of

problems storing pieces in their original koshirae that are best avoided.

 

If you want a piece to heft/handle regularily in its koshirae/leave out, you

might consider getting a modern piece of some kind instead - a gendaito or one made by a modern smith (either Japanese or Gaigin), and have a koshirae made for it to suit you - Edo koshirae are fragile and are actually kind of hard to preserve in a lot of cases - not something you want to handle much.

 

I finally ended up doing this so I could have something to "leave out" to show people/handle in koshirae - and leave the good stuff in the vault

until you're sure they aren't gonna wave it around and stick your juyo piece into the ceiling, etc.,.

 

Third, I don't think they are that hot an investment at this time (even if they did get mentioned in the May 07 edition of Worth). I'd posit that it might be better to not think of them as something you'll end up selling for more later, but rather more like art, which you purchase to enjoy.

 

The bad part is that inevitably as you collect and learn more your tastes/ideals will change and you'll probably end up selling pieces at sometime in the future - because of this, I think most people are best served by only buying pieces with the "3 Ps" initially - Papered, Polished, Perfect. Anything less will be more difficult to resell. And you have to beware of several other issues that make swords hard to sell - there is a Japanese price guide that prices based on a "typical" katana which they define as >=~27", is ubu, and has no problems/is a representative example of the smith's work - usually pieces like this are also a fairly easy "sell" when you need/want to, and those "minor problems" like being

machi okuri, suriage, have condition problems, etc., come back to

bite you at selling time.

 

Wakizashi as a first piece are a two edged sword (no pun intended) - you

can get an example of a particular smith's/school's work at a very resonable price, but there are a lot of them/they are very difficult to resell in general and usually unless got a fantastic deal, you will at best break

even on them...

 

And you might do well to look at a few top grade gendai as well,

granted I think there were fewer good gendai smiths than the market

would indicate, there

were some very good smiths and some of the pieces are very nice

(and make great candidates for the "leave out" piece - they will probably take another polish w/no problems, and are sufficiently inexpensive so that if they get trashed you don't cry in your beer much).

 

And one always has to ask themselves why a piece is being offered out of polish - one helpful hint - polishing risk is very real - I've had several pieces polished, and even with the advice of "experts" on whether or not to

have it done, I only came anywhere near "breaking even" on one.

 

I used to think buying your first piece from a dealer was important - I also no longer think this is true, unless you know what you "should" be paying.

 

There really are a lot of swords out there, and I think the saying "there will always be another" is very true.

 

Anyway, I've probably typed too much - Good luck on your first purchase :-)

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[nagamaki - Franco]

Would add the following to what Richard has said;

 

Yes, look at as many good swords as possible before buying. Learning kantei is the key to collecting fine swords.

The better U.S. sword shows will have a meibutsu display.

 

It's important to fully understand the significance of papers and swordsmith ratings prior to purchasing http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html.

 

In regards to investment, while it's acceptable for some alterations to have been done on koto swords, shinto and later swords need to be judged quite differently. Length is important here, too.

 

A swords polish will be the most significant other factor in future sales and expenditures. Take the time to learn what a good polish looks like. Add to this habaki and shirasaya, as well.

 

When it comes to buying swords with koshirae approach the two issues separately. Buy the sword for the sword, and the koshirae for the koshirae, especially when they're together! None the less, shirasaya and tsunagi are the proper way to go here. A good quality old original samurai koshirae with its original sword, and even if not, is indeed something quite special.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Excellent replies, Richard & Franco!!

 

Everyone on this forum should take these messages to heart.

[Stephen]

job well done by both, not much to add except if you have the money the best way to learn is buy youll find out quick. Your on the right path....good luck and be sure to show and tell

[Curran]

RKG did a superb job of getting many many major points into one post.

Tough act to follow. Only advice to stress: Try and get involved with a reputable sword club.

 

Given that you are a relative newbie, you are already looking at some decent sword. But bide your time and determine what interests you.

[Darcy]

I'll add my two bits:

 

Don't buy swords from the same people you're learning about swords from. The conflict of interest is better avoided, that way you're not going to get burned and at the very least you won't have anything in the back of your mind bothering you.

 

Attend whichever sword show is closest to you, join the NBTHK American Branch, and attend the lecture and kantei that is at every sword show put on by the AB. The NTHK usually does a lecture too, attend that as well. Both give you chances to look at important and good swords and that will refine your eye and tastes.

 

Figure out which collecting path you want to go down: buy something you will definitely sell later to get your feet wet at a low price, or buy something excellent that you can grow into and always love (this is more expensive). Both have their pros and cons.

 

Absolutely do not let the admiration for bushido and the sword reflect on other people in the sword world. People in the sword world represent the full spectrum from thieves and con artists to people you could leave your life savings with in cash while you went away on a 10 year trip. You have to really be careful with whom you do business, people have a way of surprising you when money is on the line as money is a strong tempter. A lot of us got burned early on because we came into this with glowing respect for everyone and there are people out there who will use your trust and respect as means to enriching themselves at your expense.

 

I've had friends and acquaintances go down that road for 10 or in one case about 30 years while people dumped junk at them. At the end of the day you are the one responsible for your decisions to buy and sell items in your collection, so you have to make sure that you are your own best friend when it comes to spending money. When unsure, keep the money in your pocket, something else will come along.

 

Also: never ask someone who has something for sale what his opinion is of something else that is for sale. Again, conflict of interest. I have sold a good number of swords in the past years and am no longer selling any, and I've had guys walk away from great items because an unknown party has warned them away with pieces of wisdom like "it's not 70cm so it's not worth owning" and "that sword has a flaw, you won't be happy with it." Both of them are the equivalent of saying a woman is unloveable because she is a bit too short or has a mole.

 

Get to the point of knowing swords enough that you can evaluate and be comfortable with your decision. You have to know and love your piece to the point where you can show it to someone who will pooh-pooh it, and you can walk away not freaked out or anxious. Understand that some people will put down things they don't own out of an emotional need to establish a pecking order, or because they missed their chance to get what you got, or that by saying it's a great piece they would be giving credibility to the guy who sold it to you and that may not be something they would like to do.

 

The majority of collectors are great guys, and there are many good dealers out there. The above is just advice for caution based on my own experiences buying and selling.

 

Here's the kind of scenario that will come about that makes it important to be able to go on your own opinion:

 

One of the most disheartening things I found was when I was selling a sword that was "only" Tokubetsu Hozon that was an extremely rare piece from the Kamakura period. It had fantastic koshirae, was in wonderful condition, was beautiful work all over and I was not asking very much for it given the above. It was "expensive" for "only" a Tokubetsu Hozon rated sword. I put that in quotes because some people will tell you that you're buying the papers and not the sword, so the price should be based on the papers instead of the piece. Rather, it's the other way around, papers are assurances NOT the item being purchased... so in this case the assurance was missing because it had no Juyo papers yet. So it's up to the collector to evaluate the piece and determine the value.

 

In this case, extremely rare maker at the top level, great condition and beauty with wonderful koshirae, the valuation should be very clear and that it would pass Juyo should also be very clear.

 

The prospective buyer had a hard time though because people were condemning the sword out of not having Juyo papers and warning him away. "Too much for a Tokubetsu Hozon."

 

He in the end trusted his instincts and bought the sword. It passed Juyo in a very hard shinsa a few months later that a lot of people got rejected from, and moreover the koshirae that had no papers he submitted to Tokubetsu Hozon and they passed that level, and they will possibly pass Juyo now as well.

 

If he had listened to the naysayers instead of trusting his gut, he'd have missed out on something that it is not possible to replace. If he did encounter this kind of thing after being papered Juyo and koshirae papered Tokubetsu Hozon, the price would easily have been 50% to 100% more than what I was asking for it. By just looking at the pieces and being able to evaluate them without the assistance of the papers though, this should have been very clear and easy to see.

 

So lucky for him he "paid too much" for this "only" Tokubetsu Hozon blade.

 

If he'd have walked away he'd be very unhappy now. The lesson is to first get your education level up to the point where you can trust it somewhat... you will make mistakes, but at the very least you have to know enough so that you can go out there and make your own decision, good or bad, on a reasonable basis. Otherwise you're just stumbling around in the dark, trusting a bunch of other people who have possibly mixed motives or may not know as much as they seem to from what they say. There are also a lot of guys out there who know a heck of a lot but you may not pick up on that because they are modest and not desiring of attention. Those are the people who are usually sword scholars and the kinds of people that are worthwhile to seek out and try to learn from.

[Red Anjin]

Thank you so much for the advice and the welcome. The former is very appreciated and the latter is surprisinglyenexpected.

 

When distill the above the basis seems to be "go look at swords!" Unfortunately I don't live in an area, when I'm not on a ship, that this is very easy. Right now I'm homeported out of Bremerton, WA. My "home" is in Pensacola, FL and I'm hoping to move to San Diego by years end. I have found a sword society in LA, but that is as close as I've found.

 

In the meantime I'll just keep buying books and looking online.

 

Thanks again, look forward to sharing my first piece.

 

Red Anjin

[Darcy]

Joshua, you are actually close to two of the main shows with your two locations.

 

The Tampa sword show is usually in February, and the San Francisco sword show (the largest one) is in August. I would suggest joining the NCJSC: http://www.ncjsc.org and/or the Florida Token Kai: http://www.floridatokenkai.com/index.html .

 

If you are travelling around on-ship, you should have I think opportunities for shore leave. Whatever major port you arrive at, inquire with the local fine arts museum about collections of Japanese swords or fittings. You may be surprised at what you can find.

 

When in New York, the Met has many good swords on display. In Boston, the Museum of Fine Arts has one of the best Japanese sword collections in the world. Toronto, the Royal Ontario Museum has a handful of swords on display. And so on...

 

You are probably more well suited than the rest of us to get an ongoing stream of sword samples for viewing. Looking at blades in museums is inferior by far than seeing things at shows, but it beats the heck out of not seeing swords at all.

[Red Anjin]

Darcy,

Tampa is about an 8 to 10 hour drive from Pensacola, (when I'm actually there) and San Fran is 6 to 8 from San Diego. Of course, as I write this, I realize I'm much closer than many on this board. I was naively hoping there would be a group in San Diego that I might get to join. While LA is relatively close, its not close enough to be readily convienent for regular meetings.

 

Thanks for the input though, I appreciate you time.

 

Cheers,

RA

[Darcy]

I'm in a whole other country, so by my definition you're close :-).

 

At least close enough to hit the major shows, it is worth the investment and at that distance it's an hour and a half hop on the plane!

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Hello Josh!

 

Welcome! This is a very good place for learning about swords!

 

Andy Quirt of nihonto.us has some great stock right now and I would recommend him a lot!

 

Hope you will enjoy this great hobby for a long time,

 

Max