Gassan attribution

[Justin]

I recently had a sword papered by the NBTHK. It is mumei with ayasugi hada and a straight hamon. They simply papered it to 'Gassan'. Does this mean that they think it is Gassan, but have no idea of the time period? I thought they would have said 'Ko-Gassan' if it were early or 'Gassan Sadakatsu Den', 'Sadakazu Den', etc if later.

 

Does the NBTHK ever put Ko on their attributions?

 

I have also heard that 'Ko-Gassan' was up until a specific time (e.g. end of Nambokucho period), then there was a period of just 'Gassan' before the school disappears until shinshinto times (when they then tended to line it up with a master and then put Den on the end if they couldn't assign it exactly).

[Ken-Hawaii]

No one has ever said that the NBTHK is consistent. Your confusion is shared with many others, Justin.

 

Ken

[Geraint]

Hi Justin.

This link references what I thought to be the case which is that only the later, Shinshimto and Showa Gassan smiths are known by name and that a large number of Gassan blades are essentially anonymous in the sense that we know almost nothing about individual smiths within the school. http://www.nihonto.ca/ko-gassan/ What does the shape of the blade suggest as to period?

 

Whatever the outcome you must be pleased with the sword!

[Justin]

Attached is a photo which shows the shape. Unfortunately due to size restrictions I cannot upload the high-res version which shows the hada/hamon (it is 1.4MB). I am very happy with this sword, however I would just like to know approximate time period. The Gassan attribution was expected, however some people think this is koto while other people have said gendaito.

[Geraint]

Well that's about as wide a range as you can get, isn't it. (Koto - gendaito)

 

From what the images show: The nakago looks ubu and the machi are clearly defined. You don't mention the nagasa but it looks to be a good length, not too much sori and an extended kissaki. The condition of the nakago is very hard to tell from these images but if ubu with a single mekugi ana then this implies not too much age. Standard thinking would suggest the large kissaki leads us to Shinshinto in combination with the other features.

 

Other far more knowledgeable may see different indicators and arrive at different conclusions and don't forget that the later Gassan smiths are noted for their ability to work in many traditions so some of the normal pointers may not apply.

 

Enjoy!

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Justin, you can use image-shack or an other and post a clickable thumbnail.

 

There were no Gassan smith from the end of Muromachi until Gassan Sadayoshi (Osaka Gassan School).

[Justin]

High-res images of the sword can be found here:

 

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/251/blade161copy.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7836 ... 61copy.jpg

 

Several people I have spoken to off the forum have said that 'Gassan' would mean koto. If it were Osaka Gassan then the NBTHK would have said something like 'Gassan Sadakazu Den', etc.

 

I might ask Darcy if he remembers the attribution for the Ko Gassan on his website.

[Eric H]

There is to distinguish between Ko-Gassan and Osaka-Gassan. The Koto Gassan line disappeared suddenly at the end of the Muromachi period, Tensho jidai, and there are no existant Gassan works in the Shinto period.

Gassan Sadayoshi (1800-1870) reestablished the Gassan Tradition and revived the technology of producing the ayasugi-hada. This group is called Osaka-Gassan and is active until the present time.

 

When needed the experts of NBTHK use the „ko“ in their origamis.

 

The Katana in question doesn‘t fall in this category. Especially modern Gassan hada consists of rather tight Jigane compared to Ko-Gassan or gendai-Gassan.

 

Gassan Masanobu - suriage - 65.1 cm - late Muromachi period, Eisho (1504)

 

NBTHK origami Ko-Uda

 

Osaka-Gassan lineage

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I was lucky enough to handle at the same time a ko Gassan and a Gassan Sadayoshi, I want to say that the major difference between them was the steel itself.

[Justin]

Thanks for your feedback guys.

 

I spoke to Darcy and he said that if the NBTHK said 'Gassan' then they mean the old school (koto). He doesn't think the papers for the Gassan on his website said Ko-Gassan. He thinks it was just Gassan.

[mdiddy]

The Gassan attribution was expected, however some people think this is koto while other people have said gendaito.

 

Sounds like you are probably headed in the right direction. I was going to add that you may want to inspect the mekugi-ana for its age, whether it was drilled or punched, etc (assuming it is ubu).

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Justin,

 

How are the yasurime ? can you provide us a good picture of the nakago ?

[Justin]

The sword is still in Japan, however hopefully this helps. There is some green lacquer/paint which looks to be a collection number of some sort.

 

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2144/38840049.jpg

 

Better photo of the point is also attached.

 

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8124/45543314.jpg

 

I don't think we need to kantei it again here on the forum, I just want to know how to interpret the papers. I feel comfortable with the feedback I have received and that the NBTHK would have put Gassan Sadakazu, Sadayoshi, Sadakatsu, etc plus Den if they thought it were shinshinto.

[Eric H]

I feel comfortable with the feedback I have received and that the NBTHK would have put Gassan Sadakazu, Sadayoshi, Sadakatsu, etc plus Den if they thought it were shinshinto.

 

The last provided pictures are more meaningful.

 

Anyway I add some pictures of a Wakizashi, 54.2 cm, ubu, one mekugi ana with niji-mei Gassan. It‘s a work of a Gassan in Meiji jidai according to the origami by Kazuo Tokuno...there is no direct attribution to one of the Osaka-Gassan active in Meiji period.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Eric, the wakizashi you show is signed (Justin speaks about mumei sword) and Kazuo Tokuno is not the NBTHK

[Eric H]

Kazuo Tokuno is not the NBTHK

Dr. Kazuo Tokuno (1933-2002), author of the Toko Taikan and several other books, was a reputed recognised expert.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

HI,

 

Dr. Kazuo Tokuno (1933-2002), author of the Toko Taikan and several other books, was a reputed recognised expert.

 

Eric

 

 

Thanks, i i'm aware of that, but you are off topic and bring nothing about it.

 

 

 

Justin,

 

For what i see, this sword is not a koto one, the ayasugi hada has another look when it is polished several times.

[Eric H]

For what i see, this sword is not a koto one, the ayasugi hada has another look when it is polished several times.

 

The provided pic by Justin of the ayasugi hada is too dark so the details are not clearly discernible. I have improved this picture, the pattern is now clearly visible.

 

Do you still insist on your opinion the blade isn‘t Koto but instead of that Shinshinto or later?

 

An explanation based on facts would be welcome.

 

Eric

[paulb]

based on what can be seen I would be inclined to say this is earlier rather than later. I think the NBTHK Gassan attribution is also indicative of this and that had they considerd it later they would have said so. The ShinSInto Gasan Ayasugi in the few examples I have seen in hand tend to look more contrived and formulaic than this one.

Alos going slightly off topic can I make a plea for both this and other topics with contributions from both Eric and Jacque? I find it both sad and frustrating when two knowledgable people with so much to offer seem to feel the need to bicker and contradict each other every time one or other makes a statement. You sound like two bitter old women arguing over an ex lover. I have no idea what has started this animosity but is there any chance it could be put to one side or at least kept outside of topics such as these where it rapidly takes over to the detriment of the subject being discussed.

[Justin]

It is difficult to see the hada in my low-res photos. As I mentioned the sword is in Japan so I can't take better photos. Although Eric has improved the images it is still difficult to get an appreciation of the ayasugi hada. It looks worn down, almost like there is shingane coming through in the peaks of the waves (although I have been told it is not core steel, but a characteristic of the hada).

 

Thanks for all the feedback both on and off the forum. I am now confident I understand the attribution from the NBTHK.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Based upon these images and memory my vote would be for newer, too. On a Koto Gassan nihonto the ayasugi hada looks incredibly pronounced, exaggerated, on steroids by comparison to more modern Gassan. The closest I've seen to it from more recent times was one Sadakazu blade that was excellent, but not quite the same, the jigane is different as well.

[runagmc]

I was thinking the same thing as Paul. Most ayasugi from the Osaka Gassan smiths is very distinct and consistently patterned... and usually tightly forged, although I have seen at least 1 or 2 tanto by Sadakazu that were coarse ayasugi. Based on that, this could be earlier work.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Ko Gassan hada (from The Gassans Tradition Boston Museum, page 56)

 

Exactly similar with the one i handed. It's due to the construction of the blade to obtain ayasugi hada.

 

[runagmc]

Also, on Osaka Gassan work you see the ayasugi-hada running through the hamon a lot...

[Justin]

I spotted this tachi on Tokugawa Art's website:

 

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/F9 ... _PUP_E.htm

 

A copy of the paper is attached. It just seems to say Gassan (rather than Ko-Gassan). This is the same as my paper, except my sword is mumei.

 

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

It looks worn down, almost like there is shingane coming through in the peaks of the waves (although I have been told it is not core steel, but a characteristic of the hada).

 

There is no shingane in blade with ayasugi hada, ayasugi hada is obtained by torsion of the sunobe.

[cabowen]

 

There is no shingane in blade with ayasugi hada, ayasugi hada is obtained by torsion of the sunobe.

 

That is not how I have seen it made....

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I speak about koto Gassan., I know there is another method to obtain ayasugi but i ignore the process.

[Tokaido]

Also, on Osaka Gassan work you see the ayasugi-hada running through the hamon a lot... tight and flawless hada[/u].

The "kantei-blade" shows somewhat pronouced nie, which leads me to the conclusion: very late Shinshinto Osaka Gassan.

 

BTW: the above mentioned Gassan Masanobu has a very complex hada compared with other Koto-Gassan.

Those Masanobu was once owned by a friend, so we had the cance for very close hands on study.

 

Greetings

Andreas

[Justin]

Thanks for your thoughts regarding kantei, however going back to my original question, do you think the NBTHK put simply 'Gassan' on the paper because:

 

a). They believe this is a koto period sword

b). They don't know which time priod to place this sword, however they know it was made by Gassan school

 

This is what I really want to know.