Tighter Policies Impacting Nihonto Collecting?

[mdiddy]

Hello,

 

I recently read this article from the New York Times regarding how museums and auction houses are starting to tighten their policies with regards to what items they allow to pass through their institutions: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/arts/ ... wanted=all. Most notably is an accepted guideline that items must have a documented history prior to 1970. I expect such a requirement would have an impact to the collecting, displaying, and trade of Nihonto in the West.

 

I was curious if any Nihonto collectors have experienced this shifting attitude, either in donations to museums or more directly in their dealings with the leading auction houses.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Matt

[drbvac]

Shouldn't affect private collectors and considering most museums accept nihonto and then dump them "in back" somewhere for the rest of time with very little if any concern for preservation it may be a good thing for us !!

[Grey Doffin]

Yes; I agree totally. Museums are where swords go to die.

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

Matt, I think you missed the point of that article. They are saying that museums are no longer willing to accept ancient artifacts that may have been looted from their original locations. I really doubt that this applies to Nihonto, although I agree with Grey that U.S. museums are seldom the appropriate repository for our blades.

 

As a case in point, the Honolulu Academy of Arts (http://honolulumuseum.org/)has an excellent collection of Nihonto donated from now-deceased members of our sword society, but they are not on display. And if you do a search on their collections, nothing comes up indicating that they even have any Japanese blades. Robert Benson donates his time to keep those blades in good condition, & I am wondering why he bothers. I'm sure other members can offer similar situations.

 

Ken

[watsonmil]

Dear All,

Did any of you NOT notice the mention of Auction Houses following the same guide lines ( under Government pressure no doubt ). If Christies, Sotheby's and Bonhams to name a few start to follow these same guide lines ( laws ), ... where does that leave most of we serious collectors when we or our heirs care to dispose of our collections ? Have any of you NOT thought about this ? Here in Manitoba, Canada since the passing of the Historic Sites and Objects Act of 1980, ... it is illegal for anyone to pick up ANY artifact from the ground. This was passed due to overzealous archaeologists pressing the government ( to protect their own over-paid positions ), .... thus destroying the artifact hunter from recovering artifacts which otherwise would NEVER be recovered. SMART eh ?? I was asked along with the Provincial Archaeologist to give a presentation to the Manitoba Metal Detecting Club on the above new legislation. The Provincial Archaeologist had these people so frightened that unless their finds were recorded " found before February 29, 1980 " that they were subject to fines and confiscation. I was then asked to take the podium, ... and as I pointed out to the people present, ... I could not instruct anyone to break the law, ... but I have heard of people recording each find as being pre February 29, 1980 with a date of February 26, 27, or 28th 1980. I then challenged the Provincial Archaeologist to charge me in court or get the F out as I have artifacts in my possession found post February 29, 1980. I further advised him in public that as of February 29, 1980 I would no longer report any important finds nor new sites to the Province and that in view of his stupidity it was my hope that none of the members present would report a god damn artifact or site also. He left in a huff, and I got a standing ovation. To make my point, ... due to the NONE reporting of artifacts nor new sites, his department has laid off most of their staff and have had their budget cut drastically. This is what people NEED to do with this type of Government inspired " protect the people from themselves " legislation. STAND UP to them !

A good example is Cities and their STUPID regulations governing elephant ivory. Just how the hell does the prohibition of 100 year old elephant ivory save an elephant today ??

 

Unless people stand up for what they believe in ( FREEDOM I hope ), .... all we can look forward to in this hobby ( study ) is more and more regulation such as seen in the UK.

 

I should apologize for the tirad, ... but are you fellow members so stupid as not to see the writing on the wall, ... or are you all willing to let the government rule your lives without so much as voiceing your rights of ownership and your ability to act and think and acquire artifacts or ART OBJECTS responsibly and in good faith ?

 

... Ron Watson

[Lance]

So they'd rather see historic items lost to exposure than being "looted"?

 

Lance

 

Dear All,

Here in Manitoba, Canada since the passing of the Historic Sites and Objects Act of 1980, ... it is illegal for anyone to pick up ANY artifact from the ground. This was passed due to overzealous archaeologists pressing the government ( to protect their own over-paid positions ), .... thus destroying the artifact hunter from recovering artifacts which otherwise would NEVER be recovered. SMART eh ??

... Ron Watson

[Ken-Hawaii]

It's not just in Canada that the government is "protecting us from ourselves...". You'd think that we all need to be pushed around in baby buggies!

 

Ken

[mdiddy]

I agree that museums are graveyards for Nihonto ... except the Frazier in Louisville, KY (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13307)with its current exhibit that I have yet to see.

 

I think giving items to museums is a bad idea. Particularly since they deacquisition for profit which I'm sure was not patrons' intent.

 

They are saying that museums are no longer willing to accept ancient artifacts that may have been looted from their original locations.

 

Ken - it is a good point. I was thinking about all of the swords in the West that were brought back from WWII. Would you consider these looted?

[Tcat]

Here in Manitoba, Canada since the passing of the Historic Sites and Objects Act of 1980, ... it is illegal for anyone to pick up ANY artifact from the ground. This was passed due to overzealous archaeologists pressing the government ( to protect their own over-paid positions ), .... thus destroying the artifact hunter from recovering artifacts which otherwise would NEVER be recovered. SMART eh ?? I was asked along with the Provincial Archaeologist to give a presentation to the Manitoba Metal Detecting Club on the above new legislation. The Provincial Archaeologist had these people so frightened that unless their finds were recorded " found before February 29, 1980 " that they were subject to fines and confiscation. I was then asked to take the podium, ... and as I pointed out to the people present, ... I could not instruct anyone to break the law, ... but I have heard of people recording each find as being pre February 29, 1980 with a date of February 26, 27, or 28th 1980. I then challenged the Provincial Archaeologist to charge me in court or get the F out as I have artifacts in my possession found post February 29, 1980. I further advised him in public that as of February 29, 1980 I would no longer report any important finds nor new sites to the Province and that in view of his stupidity it was my hope that none of the members present would report a god damn artifact or site also. He left in a huff, and I got a standing ovation. To make my point, ... due to the NONE reporting of artifacts nor new sites, his department has laid off most of their staff and have had their budget cut drastically. This is what people NEED to do with this type of Government inspired " protect the people from themselves " legislation. STAND UP to them !

 

 

Somewhat related thread - viewtopic.php?f=56&t=13044&p=115511#p115511

[Ken-Hawaii]

Good question, Matt. My concept of looting entails removing items from a place that either doesn't know about them, or is actively against their being removed. But the thesaurus defines looting as "Valuables pillaged in time of war; spoils" so maybe my concept isn't exactly by the book. But since the Japanese used swords as weapons in war, not to mention starting the entire fracas, I find it hard to think of looting when the primary reason for bringing them over here was to get them out of unfriendly hands. And of course many thousands of swords were simply melted down, & that certainly isn't looting.

 

If our government was bringing swords over just to find a market for them, or because they had some intrinsic worth, then I think a case might be made for a looting mentality, but that isn't what happened.

 

Ken

[mdiddy]

But since the Japanese used swords as weapons in war, not to mention starting the entire fracas, I find it hard to think of looting when the primary reason for bringing them over here was to get them out of unfriendly hands.

 

Brian recently posted a trove of scans from the National Archives that contain all kinds of information on the management of swords during the occupation ca. late 1945-1946. There is a lot of detail on the Japanese perspective of what was going on with swords then, including messages from Junji Homma et al to Allied leadership regarding what they were experiencing on the ground versus expectations Allied leadership had set. I highly recommend it: http://www.militaria.co.za/articles/WW2_Archives.pdf.

[Lindus]

Certain madness abroad today,apologies from governments for empire activities hundreds of years ago,museums lost in the debate on returning items to countries that are not stable or have vast collections they have taken from......ah what the hell. Currently we have a series of programs showing the treasures found in the UK, mainly by individuals with metal detectors. Fantastic hoards of precious metals and art objects,recently on the channel islands a ton of pre Roman coins have been found,lets not let these idiots drive this underground.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Roy, there have been a couple of interesting one-hour TV segments on how your treasure hunters have found incredible stashes of artifacts, including a couple who got bloody rich from their finds!

 

So if you have a metal detector, please go find a large enough stash so you can treat us all to a Nihonto. :D

 

Ken