New to My Collection...

[Brian]

Does someone have a decent scan of the identical one in the Ito book, out of interest? Looking for a larger image of David's too...would like to compare size, features, flaws etc if possible.

 

Brian

[Thierry BERNARD]

here they are!

[Soshin]

Does someone have a decent scan of the identical one in the Ito book, out of interest? Looking for a larger image of David's too...would like to compare size, features, flaws etc if possible.

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian,

 

The tsuba in the Ito book is not completely identical but very similar in terms of the design, technique, size, and thickness at rim. Once I get home from work I will post higher resolution of my photos. The tsuba has been shipped back to Grey for display at the San Fanrisco show next month.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Brian]

Thanks Thierry,

Not sure if this helps or clouds the issue, but here are the comparissons. There are a couple of remarkably similar imperfections or marks that match on both.

Would love to compare exact sizes, as when I overlayed one image on the other, and resized...they matched almost perfectly..particularly the "pillows"

The kogai bitsu on one side was enlarged obviously and the nakago ana had tagane added.

So that leaves a number of possibilities. Co-incidence, a copy of the original, or a casting of the original that duplicated everything including any forging openings on the original.

Repatinated original piece, leaving traces of the solution in the sukashi walls....or cast and patinated leaving the same. I don't know, but those who will get to see it in hand will have a better idea and I hope will update us.

 

Brian

[Sage]

 

I would think that as it goes in and is not straight it is a folding flaw rather than anything to do with a casting.

 

I'm surrounded by hundreds of molds in my workplace. The scalpel cuts are frequently curved and quick consultation with our mold-maker confirmed that if the mold were misaligned during the wax injection a negative space could very well be introduced into the wax casting.

 

Sage MacGillivray

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

As requested by Brian here are higher resolution images of the photographs I did of my tsuba. You will need to click the links to see each image as they are higher resolution then what I originally posted. I would like to get to the bottom of this question quickly as there are still many nice tsuba on Grey's website that I can exchange for this one if in fact it is a cast reproduction.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Grey Doffin]

I can guarantee that this tsuba isn't a cast copy of the one in Ito's book. I laid the tsuba on the picture in the book to see how close they are. Close, but the angles and open spaces differ a bit, half a centimeter here and there. If it is a cast copy it will have to be of a different tsuba.

Grey

[Lorenzo]

I feel a bit sorry to be the one who started all this, especially if members takes it personally or like a sort of crusade to lower the respectability of the seller or any one else, which is clearly not.

 

I felt I had better not to comment any more on this one, having already said my impressions... but after seeing all the replies, I'd like to reiterate; aren't we missing the point? I sincerely have no experience at all about casting steel; absolutely. I can't say how it's done neither I can say to be able to recognize a cast object by it's feature.

But I can say that "carved" sekigane makes no sense. That should be the only point of the discussion, in my opinion.

 

I'd like to quote Curran, regarding this:

 

I must admit I just assumed these were shakudo inserts.

I do seem to recall that I have seen faux iron sekigane on a real tsuba before, though I readily admit it doesn't make much sense and I would be hard pressed to recall where or find a photo of it. I will try.

 

While I still seriously (very seriously) doubt that this is the case, for some remote aesthetic reason there could be faux sekigane... but I think when and if we will see it we will clearly see why... meanwhile I would suggest to take any sekigane that is one piece with the tsuba as a sign of a fake piece.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Lorenzo,

I have never seen this thread as a threat to my reputation; don't concern yourself with that. I more than anyone else, except possibly for Skip Holbrook, want to learn what's up with this tsuba.

Grey

[Soshin]

Dear Everyone,

 

I would agree with Grey. I want to get to the bottom of mystery about this tsuba. If it is a cast reproduction then it is at such a high quality level I have haven't seen before. I would say much better then the cast reproductions coming out of modern Japan that you often seen on iaito practice swords. As well as being miles away from the fake Chinese reproductions.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Sage]

I can guarantee that this tsuba isn't a cast copy of the one in Ito's book. I laid the tsuba on the picture in the book to see how close they are. Close, but the angles and open spaces differ a bit, half a centimeter here and there. If it is a cast copy it will have to be of a different tsuba.

Grey

 

Would you mind taking a photo that illustrates this? The waxes we use in our shop can distort if not treated carefully and I wonder if that's a factor in what you describe? This may not be relevant at all but I could speak to it with more confidence if I could see what you mean.

 

Sage MacGillivray

[cspage]

Just my humble opinion, Brian's observation and demonstration of the duplicated indentations/flaws is pretty convincing that the tsuba in question must be at least some generation of a cast knockoff of the one in the book. Logic must prevail. I hope Brian's observations are addressed in the final court's opinion.

 

Colin

[Soshin]

Hi Colin,

 

I will be taking into consideration Brian, Ford, Lorenzo, and others comments in consideration when I make a final judgement to keep the tsuba. I would also like to have some knownledgable people examine the tsuba it in person.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[drbvac]

Can someone answer Lorenzo's comment regarding the sekigane - if they are in fact not in the same metal as the tsuba and loose or removable I would think this not a cast copy - unless this was a very expensive and rare tsuba the trouble to cast to this accuracy and then fit the sekigane makes no sense.

[Bob M.]

Hi All,

 

Sorry for coming to this a little late - if you look at the large side on view posted by Brian , looks to me that this piece is showing several signs of having been profile cut .

 

The apertures are showing witness of lines which are not quite vertical or straight - typical of the 'drag' effect when using a flame to cut metal . This compounded with a consistent band of colouration in the metal strongly suggests a one sided heat source . The opening in the material is also consistent with the effect that a high temperature has on laminated steel - it tends to de-laminate in precisely this way.

 

It would be a simple job to add the finishing touches to such a profiled piece.

 

The technology to produce precision profiled blanks has been around for many years , methods used include the traditional flame cutting , plasma ,laser , wire erosion and latterly ,high pressure water jet .The last two are unlikely to have been used with this piece as they would not leave evidence of heat having been used.

 

Regards

Bob

[Michael 101]

Hi David,

Well this is interesting – I was actually just behind you in placing my order for this very same tsuba.

My own take on it was that it is a Kamiyoshi version of the original Hayashi design.

My reasons for this are the way the sukashi cut marks show (I agree it’s not a cast) and the apparent younger age of the iron and also the shape of the hitsu ana which are very Kamiyoshi (note the difference to the Hayashi one pictured)

I think it’s a shame about the later punch marks around the Nakago ana as I think these cover up the chisel marks that would have confirmed 2nd or 3rd Kamiyoshi – are any traces seen at the base where the punch hasn’t reached ?

Could also I suppose be a Akasaka copy of Higo but I think less likely due to the finish of the iron being more Kamiyoshi.

I think it was a good buy.

Kind regards

Michael

[Grey Doffin]

Hi guys,

I have the tsuba back and can compare it with the one in Ito's book. I'm posting a picture of the tsuba laying on the picture in the book. With the tsuba perfectly centered on the picture there are subtle differences; if I align the edge of the tsuba with the edge of the pictured tsuba the differences are more pronounced. The picture below is with the tsuba centered.

Also, the tsuba in the book has 2 kogai shaped ana and my tsuba has 1 kogai and 1 kotsuka ana. There are subtle tekkotsu on the rim of this tsuba and it rings clear when tapped with a fingernail. Apart from the obvious difference of the punch marks on my nakago hitsu-ana that aren't in the book, the nakago hitsu-ana of the tsuba in the book is 2mm taller than the one on my tsuba.

Just saw Michael's post. I'm adding 2 closeups of the nakago hitsu-ana.

None of this is an attempt to prove this tsuba isn't a cast or some other technology generated copy. As much as anyone, I want to know what this is. Fell free question anything.

Grey

[Soshin]

Hi David,

Well this is interesting – I was actually just behind you in placing my order for this very same tsuba.

My own take on it was that it is a Kamiyoshi version of the original Hayashi design.

My reasons for this are the way the sukashi cut marks show (I agree it’s not a cast) and the apparent younger age of the iron and also the shape of the hitsu ana which are very Kamiyoshi (note the difference to the Hayashi one pictured)

I think it’s a shame about the later punch marks around the Nakago ana as I think these cover up the chisel marks that would have confirmed 2nd or 3rd Kamiyoshi – are any traces seen at the base where the punch hasn’t reached ?

Could also I suppose be a Akasaka copy of Higo but I think less likely due to the finish of the iron being more Kamiyoshi.

I think it was a good buy.

Kind regards

Michael

 

Hi Michael,

 

Nice to hear from you. I was doing some reading as I don't know much about Higo tsuba. In Tsuba An Estetic Study it says the 2nd generation Hayashi Shigemitsu was well know for using a round tangane to finsh around the outside of the nakago-ana. As for the patina it doesn't look or smell like it was recently repatinated. Patina color would be consistent with your idea that it is the work of later generation Kamiyoshi Higo school. As well as the fake inserts which would keep with the estestics of the Hayashi or Kamiyoshi schools.

 

Thank you Grey for your valid in hand observations of the tsuba. I was thinking my tsuba was not cast copy of the tsuba in Ito's book. As of now I am really unsure and will wait until after the SF sword show to make a final judgement.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Brian]

I don't think we can work off a direct overlay on the one in the book, unless we know for a fact that the book image is perfectly 1:1 with the real one, and that is doubtful. Whover did the casting (if it turns out to be so) obviously had to disguise an obvious comparisson, hence the opening of the kozuka hitsu ana into that odd shape. However to me, this is one of the most telling indicators that this is a cast of the original. You can see how they were unable to get the line of the ana flowing, and it is awkward along the bottom edge. Look closely at the spacing at the top and bottom of both...exact.

The punchmarks were also an attempt at changing the overall look. But you can see the original shape was the same.

I dunno...look forward to hearing from those who examine it in hand. However with the quality of casting nowdays, and the fact that I hear there are professionals turning out high quality fakes like this nowdays purely to deceive.....

Pity we don't have high quality scans of the original..would be good to be able to compare closer. But tiny little things that are compared seem to be identical. Spacings and the way things line up. I just can't discount them no matter how much I would like to.

Finally, those "pillows" are exact. Not close...but exact. Same angles, same shape, same position. That can have no other reason besides a casting. If they were cut in the style of...they wouldn't match exactly.

 

Brian

[raiden]

On a related note at Tetsugendo website: http://tetsugendo.com/ they have a signed and NBTHK Hozon papered Hayashi Shigemitsu tsuba for sale. Looking at the photos of that tsuba I cannot tell for sure if all the inserts are real. It would be great if Mike Y. or Cyrus C. would reply to this thread confirming that the inserts are soft metal and functional.

 

My signed shigemitsu has shakudo inserts, anyone who will attend the show can see and handle the tsuba at our table. one point is the iron of the tsuba in question should be what is known as "yokan tetsu" if it is hayashi or high grade kamiyoshi.

mike

[Soshin]

My signed shigemitsu has shakudo inserts, anyone who will attend the show can see and handle the tsuba at our table. one point is the iron of the tsuba in question should be what is known as "yokan tetsu" if it is hayashi or high grade kamiyoshi.

mike

 

 

Hi Mike Y.,

 

I am not familiar with Higo tsuba in general more less Hayashi or high-end Kamiyoshi tsuba. What does the term "yokan tetsu" refer to in regards to the iron? Having some Kanji would be helpful. As a fellow member of the America Branch of NBTHK could you take a look my tsuba which is topic of this discussion? It will be at Grey Doffin's table as I will be unable to attend the upcoming San Francisco show this year. If you are around at the next Florida show I will take a look at your tsuba for future reference. Thank you very much for any help you can provide and explaned my general understanding of Higo tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Henry Wilson]

What does the term "yokan tetsu" refer to in regards to the iron?

 

Yookan, 羊羹 (ようかん) is a Japanese sweet that is usually black / brown and glossy.

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

Thanks for the reply and the help. I do remember my tsuba having a glossiness to its surface. The overall color of the patina I would refer to as brownish black as well. It is reflected better in the higher resolution photos I posted later I think. I also noticed some features in my tsuba that are not on the tsuba in the book. I upload a edited photo where the features are highlighted with black circles. This still does not explain the ryo hitsu-ana being iron issue. I still don't know about this tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ruben]

Dear Gentlemen,

 

read the threat with great interest.

I´am not knowledgable with tsuba´s at all, but I found also some kind of truth for my self, at this point.

The "wrong" sekigane seems not that strange for me, cause if it wouldn´t be cast iron, the craftsman sure marks the cut-outs with the chisel, so he can not miss the lines when filing it out (there´s some chisel marks in some spots). Leaving the "wrong" sekigane as it is can be or is also a matter of time and cost saving.

Beside this there is somthing wrong I think. As said before the Patina seems little strange.

At least I think someone gave it a touch up in the past.

Also the tsuba didn´t look much worn, can indicate it´s not old.

On many iron tsuba´s it´s possible to see were the owner placed his finger´s (crusty corrosion from H2O + NaCl + few decades) when wearing the sword.

But I realy don´t now...

 

Greetings

 

Ruben

[Lorenzo]

My last word is cast.

[Thierry BERNARD]

My last word is cast.

 

why a last word before a visual inspection ?

[Sage]

I also noticed some features in my tsuba that are not on the tsuba in the book. I upload a edited photo where the features are highlighted with black circles.

 

Hi David,

 

Even as a cast it makes sense to me that there would be some anomalous marks on the tsuba. After all, they needed to do some clean up work on it with files, add the punch marks around the nakago ana and cut and file the kozuka histu-ana (which as Brian says was done badly). Given that they would be trying to conceal the cast nature they would hardly take pains to avoid some mild wear and tear on the surface during these processes. Some of the marks may even have been left intentionally.

 

So as far as discerning if this is a cast of the one in the Ito book these marks are non-issues. I agree with Brian's analysis - the number of details that do match up exactly is pretty telling.

 

Sage

[Lorenzo]

 

why a last word before a visual inspection ?

 

 

It's very simple, because of those sekigane. As I'm saying from the very beginning.

As simple as that.

[drbvac]

Not to sound as if Lorenzo, I and others are broken records but are the Sekigane on the tsuba the same metal and all one piece with the tsuba or are they separate and able to be moved >?

 

If one piece then most likely cast all in one - to cast a copy as I said before and then place shakudo sekigane in the tsuba would have to be a copy 0f one worth a lot of money to be worth the trouble would it not??

 

 

Sorry written after Lorenzo's reply

[Sage]

Hi Brian,

 

The sekigane are of a piece with the rest of the tsuba.

 

David's description at the beginning of the thread was:

 

"This tsuba has what appears to be soft metal pillows in the ryo hitsu-ana that are faux: they are finely carved into the iron."