Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Hi Everyone,

 

I just finished doing photos of a new tsuba in my more focused and much smaller collection. I hope you enjoy them. This is something different for me as this is my first Higo tsuba. The smooth texture and patina of the iron of this tsuba is wonderful. The former owner was thinking it is a work of the 2nd generation Hayashi school master Shigemitsu. See the second photo for more information. I hope to have a full write up in the comming week about the tsuba on my website. Comments and questions are welcome. Came also across something funny in my reading. It was that Higo tsubako of the Hayashi school were not allow to sign their work until they were 61 years old. Is this true? Have a wonderful weekend. :D :beer:

 

P.S. How many Takeda mon can you count on the tsuba?

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

post-1126-14196837135904_thumb.jpg

post-1126-14196837141267_thumb.jpg

Posted

Hi Malcolm,

 

I count six Takeda-mon designs on the tsuba. I am surprised when you said nine. :shock: Thanks for looking.

Another interesting note about this tsuba. All tsuba I have seen photos of made by Hayashi Shigemitsu have what I think are "soft metal pillows" in the ryo hitsu-ana. This tsuba has what appears to be soft metal pillows in the ryo hitsu-ana that are faux: they are finely carved into the iron. This can also can seen in the photo in the book of the very similar tsuba attributed to Hayashi Shigemitsu.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

Mr. Stiles,

 

I know who else was behind you in line to get this one. This solves the mystery of who got to it before him.

I would need to go back to check the emails, but believe his attribution was close or same as yours.

 

One of the tsuba most interesting to me from that sale is still available,

but I find myself needing to be fiscally more responsible at the moment.

 

Nice to see other people's good stuff, even if from afar.

Posted

Hi Curren,

 

Nice to hear from you. Very rarely do nice tsuba come along at such reasonable prices. The sukashi design is extremely well done on this tsuba which attracted me to it. The patina and surface texture (migaki-ji) is also very finely done which are all characteristic of Hayashi Shigemitsu work. I am not 100 percent sure it is his work but I am sure of the tsuba quality and fine design. Sometimes the Akasaka copies of Higo work can be very good as well. How many Takeda-mon do you see in my tsuba? Here is a link to Wikipedia as a reference of what the Takeda mon looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeda_clan.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

I agree as to workmanship.

 

I think there were a few especially good ones in that sell.

I am curious who got the Ikkin. It was a subdued piece, but I thought it legit for maybe 2nd gen.

These go for a good bit more in Japan. I owned one once and sold it to one of the big Japan shops.

 

I see the mon clearly 8 times per side = 16 times (?) 4 times clearly in positive, and 4 times not so obvious in larger negative silhouette.

I am not sure about counting the 9th as legit.

 

Hayashi is the Higo school with which I have least experience. They are often the most 'exact' or precise of the Higo in terms of execution.

It is easy to miss the secondary qualities such as the negative silhouette of the mon.

Posted

Good evening David,

 

I counted 9 as 4 small Takeda mon in the center of the 4 Sukashi stylized Takeda mon with the central lozenge shape hosting the Nakago ana and Hitsu ana being the 9th Takeda mon in negative profile so to speak.

 

However many, it's a really pleasing design.

 

Cheers

Posted

Hi Everyone,

 

Looking at it I am seeing a total on 6 Takeda-mon per side. Two in ji-sukashi and four in kage-sukashi. The 2nd generation Hayashi Shigemitsu was known for mixing positive and negative silhouette designs in his tsuba. Take care and thanks for looking.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

Hi Curran,

 

Looking at my tsuba again I do see the nine Takeda-mon represented using different techquies. I love tsuba that make you think about their designs using different techniques.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

Hi David, lovely design. I'm very keen to Takeda mon and derivatives... still searching for something bearing the kasane bishi mon.

 

This tsuba has what appears to be soft metal pillows in the ryo hitsu-ana that are faux: they are finely carved into the iron. This can also can seen in the photo in the book of the very similar tsuba attributed to Hayashi Shigemitsu.

 

In normal circumstances this fact would make me scream cast; however you are saying that this is a documented feature of Hayashi Shigemitsu? Can you please elaborate more? Please understand I'm not saying you are wrong, one never stops to learn and I'd like to learn more to avoid mistakes.

 

Thank you.

Posted

Hi Lorenzo,

 

Thanks for the comment. Looking at the inside surfaces of the sukashi clearly indicate that the tsuba isn't cast. The quality of the iron is also not what you would see in modern cast reproductions. The soft metal "pillows" along the ryo-hitsu ana are not cast like seen often in cast tsuba but are just false craved from the iron of the plate using a kebori technique similar to what is used in the really small Takeda-mon designs. Theses "pillows" are observed in all of Hayashi Shigemitsu tsuba when one exception in the Sasano books and a few other books. In terms of which are real and which are faux it is really hard to tell when I only have black and white photos for most tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

David, what I was concentrating on wasn't the fact there was or not soft metal liners on the bottom of the ryohitsu, that is something very common; what surprise me is the fact they are faux and possibly carved in the iron surface.

 

This, if legit, could be the first time I see something like this; I see no reason to do that... So my doubt remain :D

Posted

David, I'm afraid I'm with Lorenzo on this one.

 

The fact that there's no obvious seam line in the sukashi is evidence of nothing really. It's a remarkably simple task to file up a casting. As for quality of steel, modern technology produces flawless steel in casting too.

 

The seki gane in ryo-hitsu are of copper of shakudo (in steel) precisely because they are so much softer and therefore less likely to damage a soft metal kogai or kozuka. The idea of carving faux seki-gane in steel would seem to defy the whole point and simply seems perverse.

 

As you say;

Theses "pillows" are observed in all of Hayashi Shigemitsu tsuba when one exception in the Sasano books and a few other books.

However, every single example is of copper or shakudo.

 

In fact the texture of the steel and kuchi-beni as well as the condition of the sukashi inner wall suggests to me that this is in fact a cast copy. btw; there is nothing remarkable about a 5mm thick sukashi tsuba either. It's remarkably common in sukashi tsuba.

 

Perhaps it would be helpful to see the example as illustrated in Mr Ito's book. And if there's a single example in there with similar faux carved seki-gane I'll eat my hat. :roll:

 

Sorry to go on about this one but if anyone else thinks this sort of detail is legit then they'll also end up with a cast copy....'cos there'll be others. :(

 

regards,

 

Ford

Posted

Hi Everyone,

 

Rich T. was saying the same thing to me. What a expensive mistake on my part. I am not a rich man. I really need to consider now if I want contuine his hobby or not. :(

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

David,

Be careful not to be be too discouraged and over react. I greatly respect the opinions expressed by those fittings experts here and Rich T and would tend to believe them, so it may be you have made a mistake. It sucks and leaves a bad feeling at least for a while. But every serious collector I know has made similar mistakes as they progress through the subject. It can and does happen to all of us, particularly those that are stretching the borders of knowledge and finance.

Hang in there

best regards

Paul

Posted

I would firstly have it looked at in hand by an expert. Perhaps sent to one of the upcoming shows or someone who is considered an expert. Then you need to have it documented if it is a fake. And then you need to follow up with the seller. Even if he was unaware, there has to be some sort of fallback in this case.

Whatever you do, don't give up the hobby. There will always be deals that make up for this one.

 

Brian

Posted
David,

It can and does happen to all of us, particularly those that are stretching the borders of knowledge and finance.

Hang in there

best regards

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I would agree anything Higo is outside of my experience as I am not familiar with these schools. The seller has already contacted me as he is honest. I am going wait and see and not make any quick judgements. Brian's idea of sending it to a expert or even NTHK or NBTHK shinsa might be a good idea.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

To ask the almost verboten: does anyone think Skip would sell a cast?

My cumulative experience opinion is "No".

He has saved me from an error or two before.

 

~~In this instance David has the safety of purchasing from what I believe to be two reputable people.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________

My monitor and viewer isn't the best, and my photoviewer program is a laughable antique. I must admit I just assumed these were shakudo inserts.

I do seem to recall that I have seen faux iron sekigane on a real tsuba before, though I readily admit it doesn't make much sense and I would be hard pressed to recall where or find a photo of it. I will try.

Posted

s**t happens-and s**t does occur.

 

In mine eyes neither would do this-at least not intendingly.

 

Sad but common...(very common in fact-the "Old" of us do know about....)

Keep on Going David!

(no reason so to hide or feel sad-you just follow old footsteps...LOL!...what else?)

:beer:

 

Christian

Posted

Hi guys,

I am the seller of this tsuba. I've put in a call to Skip and hope to have his take on this soon. As I told David, no need to worry; anyone can return anything he buys from me at anytime.

Grey

Posted

Not sure if this pic will clarify anything...or spark more debate?

I think this case will also show why it is so much better to buy from familiar and trusted sellers (as in this case) as opposed to the nest of snakes that can be found on eBay etc. Known dealers among our small community survive for one reason..they stand behind their goods. Just received the tsuba I bought from Grey..couldn't be happier.

 

Brian

 

Ps - In the nakago ana...folding/forging flaw or something indicative of casting?

IMG_8818.jpg

Posted

Brian

 

Perhaps this image will better clarify the casting process. A rubber mould is taken from a metal original. This mould is then cut in half using a scalpel, freeing the original model. The mould is then put together again and molten wax is injected into the cavity under high pressure. Sometimes, if the mould isn't perfectly fitted together over-thick wax seams are formed or the misalignment leads to a 'negative' seam. This could be mistaken for a weld flaw.

 

The wax model can in fact be filed up prior to investing in plaster and the metal casting made. In that case there is no tell tale seam. More commonly the metal model would be cleaned up post casting.

 

post-229-141968373491_thumb.jpg

Posted

Hi Everyone,

 

I just talked to Grey on the telephone. The tsuba was purchased by Skip awhile ago from a large old American collection of tsuba. I will be sending the tsuba back to him tomorrow. He will be showing it to different knowledgeable people (i.e. Jim G., Curran C., Mike Y., Cyrus C, and other high profile people if they are attending the show) including the original owner Skip who will be there to get their impressions and analysis of tsuba at the upcoming San Francisco Japanese Sword Show early next month. I can't attend this show this year or I would be doing this. He will collect their impressions and ideas about the tsuba and contact me after the show to see if I still want the tsuba. If I decided to part with it as the consensus view is that it is a cast reproduction I will get full store credit to the value of the tsuba. This sounds like a fair deal to me.

 

On a related note at Tetsugendo website: http://tetsugendo.com/ they have a signed and NBTHK Hozon papered Hayashi Shigemitsu tsuba for sale. Looking at the photos of that tsuba I cannot tell for sure if all the inserts are real. It would be great if Mike Y. or Cyrus C. would reply to this thread confirming that the inserts are soft metal and functional.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Posted

Hi David,

If you don't mind, I'd like to make a few small corrections.

Skip told me he bought the tsuba from a western collector; he didn't say it was a large, old collection.

I will have the tsuba at the show in San Francisco and will show it to Skip, who very much wants to see it, and to other knowledgeable collectors if present and willing. I can't guarantee that those mentioned by David will want to see it or that they even will be at the show.

David & I did a trade of a number of tsuba and money for a number of tsuba, which is why he is getting store credit rather than a straight refund. We agreed that it would be too difficult to establish the exact $ amount he has in this one tsuba. Normally he would get a straight refund if he wanted it.

Thanks for the chance to put this right.

Grey

Posted

Yes David, they are real.

 

BTW:

Deru kugi wa utareru[1][2]

Literally: The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

 

虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず。 Koketsu ni irazunba koji wo ezu.

Literally: If you do not enter the tiger's cave, you will not catch its cub.

茂田滄海 (2002). サラリーマンの父から息子への、67通の手紙: 中国の名言をちりばめて. 文芸社. p. 81. ISBN 4835539524.

 

継続は力なり。 Keizoku wa chikara nari.

Literally: Perseverance is strength.

ポケット図解ドラッカー経営のツボがよーくわかる本:. 秀和システム. 2008. p. 37. ISBN 4798020680.

 

能ある鷹は爪を隠す。 Nō aru taka wa tsume wo kakusu.

Literally: The talented hawk hides its claws (Hide your expertise until it is requested).

 

関洸念 (1999). 諺にみる運・根・鈍: 日本人の魂の故郷を温ねて. 文芸社. p. 399. ISBN 4887376863.

 

Taken from Wikiquotes.

Posted
Not sure if this pic will clarify anything...or spark more debate?

I think this case will also show why it is so much better to buy from familiar and trusted sellers (as in this case) as opposed to the nest of snakes that can be found on eBay etc. Known dealers among our small community survive for one reason..they stand behind their goods. Just received the tsuba I bought from Grey..couldn't be happier.

 

Brian

 

Ps - In the nakago ana...folding/forging flaw or something indicative of casting?

 

I would think that as it goes in and is not straight it is a folding flaw rather than anything to do with a casting.

Posted

BTW -- I have the feeling it's a Tosa Myochin piece (tagane around the nakago ana) which appears to have been re-patinated -- poorly. If you look in the sukashi you can see over-runs of whatever was used. the coloring also coats the tagane which reinforces the repatination concept. The walls of the sukashi also look to have vertical chisel marks from finishing and yes Brian, that does resemble a lamination opening.

Posted

Hmmm, and where do our resident tsuba experts gain their expertise with respect to casting?

 

But the 'gorilla in the room' remains. Can anyone point to a confirmed antique tsuba with faux/fake carved seki-gane (in steel!) in the ryo-hitsu? If we were talking of the same effect on the nakago-ana the discussion would be over. Frankly I find the willingness to entertain this 'possibility' to be beyond my comprehension. :roll:

 

'Cart before the horse' gentlemen. And on that note I will take my leave....

Posted
Hmmm, and where do our resident tsuba experts gain their expertise with respect to casting?

 

Well, I don't consider myself to be an 'expert' at anything outside my profession but I'd say being a dentist for about twenty five years has given me a bit of an education in metal casting and observation in fine details. Could I be wrong? Of course I could. Actually, I'd love to see this piece in hand and I'll be the first in line to admit if I am mistaken but what I will not do is to abandon my right to express my opinion simply because it deviates from someone else's. Learning is based upon observations and comparisons from many sources, not on just one, no matter how learned that one is. We are ALL capable of error.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...