CurtisR Posted July 12, 2012 Report Posted July 12, 2012 I have been doing quite a bit of reading on Nihonto (as my Sensei describes it..."falling down the rabbit-hole" :D ) but am still unsure if there is a method or technique used to determine how many polishings a blade has had? Some are obvious of course, with much of the metal missing, etc. but is there a specific "way" to tell or estimate how many times a Nihonto has been polished? I'm sure that during a Shinsa the experts could tell, but as one thinking of buying a good blade(s) in the future, it would be helpful to know *before* the purchase, or at least have an idea what to look for. Thanks in advance, Curtis R. Quote
Surfson Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 Just a few hints: 1. If the sword has only been polished once, it is usually "ububa", meaning the last inch or two above the habaki are noticeably duller. 2. If it has been polished twice or more, it is not ububa. 3. If it has been polished many times, it begins to develop fumbari, a phenomenon much like one sees with old kitchen knives where they are wider at the beginning of the cutting edge than further in to the blade. 4. Similarly, if they have been polished many many times, the tang is considerably thicker than the blade itself, even though they once were roughly the same thickness. 5. If polished too much, a blade often starts to show the core steel, or "shintetsu", providing that it is multipiece construction. I hope these few things help you in the rabbit hole! Quote
Bazza Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 One more thing to note is if the mihaba (mune to ha - back to cutting edge distance) narrows from a scarcely existent hamachi. Of course, this needs to be taken in conjunction with other signs. I once had a hirazukuri tanto signed Bizen Morimitsu with an Oei date. It was a Shinshinto utsushi (copy) that had been tricked up in every way. It narrowed from the nakago into the blade indicating many polishes; the mihaba narrowed from a small hamachi; the nakago itself had rust pits in an attempt to indicate great age; and finally it had a choji midare hamon that looked "right". It didn't help that the blade had been linished with all traces of hamon and hada removed (a local, post-war cleanup attempt). It took finger stones to reveal the hamon and some features of the hada. It came in nice koshirae with black lacquered scabbard with a gold lacquer signature, a nicely signed Echizen Ju, Kinai saku iron tsuba, Higo fuchigashira, and nice menuki all bound with a tsukamaki. With this koshirae the blade was a gimei clearly intended to deceive. So, in short, some indications of how many polishes a blade has had are not always to be relied upon... Bestests, BaZZa. EDIT - to correct kasane to mihaba. Apologies for misinformation. Quote
Grey Doffin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 Another indication of too many polishes is a lack of nakago fumbari. If repeated polishing has reduced the ha machi the ha of the nakago is sometimes moved back below the machi to restore the machi. Doing this removes some of the taper in width (fumbari) of the nakago. Grey Quote
Toryu2020 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 I know we have been over this before but, Funbari is a feature built into the blade from its creation and is usually an indication of great age. Later smiths did copy it but I would steer clear of any sword where the funbari appears to have been created by polishing... -t Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 some indications of how many polishes a blade has had are not always to be relied upon... Exactly correct. Sword characteristics must be carefully studied and weighed in order to determine whether or not what is being viewed is a function of perhaps a single polish, and if so, why, or a function of age, polishing over time. The ha machi being almost gone is frequently credited to a sword being tired, when it could be removal of deep chips in the ha which is in fact the culprit. Ubu ba, there are Koto swords with ubu ba. Kantei follows a certain methodology for good reason as a mistep especially in determining the correct time period of manufacture may leave the examiner completely lost. I'm sure that during a Shinsa the experts could tell, but as one thinking of buying a good blade(s) in the future, it would be helpful to know *before* the purchase, or at least have an idea what to look for. Shinsa judges given time could tell. But, often at a shinsa the judges must quickly determine what they have in front of them, not 'if' and what might be. This is also why using an amateur polisher or purchasing a sword polished by an amateur is a throw of the dice. One good reason for attending sword shows is it creates the opportunity to view many, many, swords. Over time this creates an advantage where having seen three of four swords by a particular smith will enable the collector to correctly determine what's what. Quote
cabowen Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 There is no reliable way to tell how many polishes a blade has had. The only thing that can be determined is when a blade has had too much, or a lot, of material removed. This can happen from one polish.... Quote
CurtisR Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Posted July 13, 2012 Excellent advice and hints - thank you all for your great (as always) information! It sounds as though experience and seeing many blades is the best way to tell or get a 'sense' of the number, and quality of the polisher. I *do* know that a quality polish is about $100.00 per cm, and on a good blade, can be money well-spent. Before I lay out 7k or so, I'm trying to learn as much as possible! Many thanks! Curtis R. Quote
Grey Doffin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 Curtis, I think $100 per inch is more likely. Never heard of a $7,000 polish. Grey Quote
cabowen Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 Curtis,I think $100 per inch is more likely. Never heard of a $7,000 polish. Grey Some upper level polishers charge 5,000 yen a centimeter....That comes to about $180 an inch with the weak dollar.... Quote
CurtisR Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Posted July 14, 2012 Thanks- Grey that make a bit more sense ! Curtis Quote
CurtisR Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Posted July 14, 2012 To Mr. cabowen - I can imagine that a top-level polish on an old and expesive blade could run that price, easily. I suppose it's who does, it, blade quality *before* polish, etc. that sets the quote...and of course, the Shirasaya (Sayashi is the term I think?) has to get paid as well. I will be looking at some blades soon - many Gunto but also some old blades (Katana & Wakizashi / Nihonto) as well - owned by a friend of mine within the next week or so. Hoping to find a good blade in there somewhere :D. And also convince him how to store them properly (they are now standing upright in a box, with the Kissaki pointing down). More to follow and again, thank you for the knowledge and tips given! Curtis R. Quote
Surfson Posted July 14, 2012 Report Posted July 14, 2012 Mishina San, Kenji, charges 4000 yen per cm. He is Mukansa and one of the best polishers in the world. It can add up with a long blade, but well worth it I believe. http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/m-kenji/service.html Quote
CurtisR Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Posted July 14, 2012 Wow - thank you Robert - I looked at his site and it is amazing. Depending on what I can 'wrangle' out of my friend, perhaps I have found "the" polisher. At least - thanks to those here - I know what to look for in a "tired" balde vs. one worth the investment. (P.S. - my friend doesn't really know WHAT he has...he is wealthy so perhaps a good deal will come my way!). Cheers for the Weekend!! Curtis R. Quote
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