What is this activity called? And opinions on blade.

[jrs]

Hey Everyone.

 

What is this activity called? There are patches of nie above the hamon on this blade. I'm not sure how to classify it. If it was by the shinogi, it would be utsuri, but just above the hamon I don't know what to call it. Any help would be nice. Sorry about the pictures, it was very hard to capture on the camera.

 

Thanks in advance,

James

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Not sure (unclear) what activity the arrows are pointing to, however, to answer your question, nie above the hamon is generally referred to as ji nie. Utsuri, and there are several different kinds, is defined as a form of shadow hamon appearing above the hamon, and not necessarily always found up by the shinogi, a rare feature found on the work of specific smiths and schools in general. Strings of nie in the ji could be chikei. A good library with glossaries are essential. Yamanaka's Newsletters offers an excellent section defining in words what the various forms of activity found on nihonto are (both good and poor), in addition to kantei descriptions of smiths and schools.

[Jamie]

From pictures it looks like maybe tobiyaki to me.

 

Do the patches you refer to look like little floating clouds and are they the same color as the hamon?

[jrs]

I have books and references, but I am stumped at defining this accurately. I wish it photographed better because its very visible in person. Some times it is a small cluster, in other places it key run for several inches above the hamon. The best way I can describe it is that its like a reflection or shadow of the hamon, but because it touches the hamon, or is just above the hamon, I don't know it would be called utsuri.

 

I'm attaching another picture in which I circled the areas and have arrows pointing to what I'm talking about, just to show the exact locations. Compare between the 2 pictures.

 

James

 

 

[jrs]

From pictures it looks like maybe tobiyaki to me.

 

Do the patches you refer to look like little floating clouds and are they the same color as the hamon?

 

They are not as defined as the hamon, but instead look like "moist" spots.

 

James

[nagamaki - Franco]

"moist" spots

 

"moist spots" brings Yubashiri to mind, but the question still remains.

[paulb]

I agree with Franco and would call these Yubashiri I think.

What do you know about the sword? The hada is very clear and dominant. It reminds me very much of a ko wakazashi I had many years ago that had this combination of light and dark steel. The shape and hamon made me think it was 15th century but the NTHK papered it as shin-shinto. They also told me this type of hada was typically shin-shinto (although I havent subesequently seen othr examples)

[Eric H]

The hada is very clear and dominant.

 

This hada is seen on shinshinto swords and is called yakumo gitae, clustered clouds, ostentatiously outstanding hada containing glittering elements sometimes seen on blades by Rekko and Hamabe Jukaku.

 

Eric

[paulb]

thanks Eric

[jrs]

The blade has been a conundrum to me. I bought it in gun to mounts. Pretty bad polish but the hada was visible. Sent it to be polished, new habaki and shirasaya made. The Nagasaki is just under 24", suriage or o suriage. 3 mekugi Ana. Maru mune. It had an unreadable mei, something Mitsu, which the polisher said was bad and he removed it. He suggested it go to shinsa and that was my plan, but after I got it back from him, other things kept happening to prevent me spending the money for shinsa, so I've just been holding on to it. One on side the Harmon is very gunome and on the other more suguha, but the activity in question appears on both sides.

[jrs]

I agree with Franco and would call these Yubashiri I think.

What do you know about the sword? The hada is very clear and dominant. It reminds me very much of a ko wakazashi I had many years ago that had this combination of light and dark steel. The shape and hamon made me think it was 15th century but the NTHK papered it as shin-shinto. They also told me this type of hada was typically shin-shinto (although I havent subesequently seen othr examples)

 

The blade has seen use and many polishes. It just seems older than shin Shinto to me.

[paulb]

Hi James,

you are right it doesn't sound like shin-shinto. Having said that when I had the tanto I mentioned earlier I was convinced it was late koto from around 1430. the shape and hamon were definitely ktot stylistically and the nakago appeared to have age. Unfortunately the shinsa panel didnt agree with me.

I found an image of the hada which I think shoews you why I was reminded of it looking at your sword.

Best Regards

Paul

[jrs]

Thanks for the picture Paul. I'll try to take more pictures of the blade today and see what people think.

James

[Ron STL]

I'd be very surprised if this was a shinshin-to sword as the ji-hada looks very "koto" to me, maybe sue-koto. As for those "spots" we are looking at -- I played around with your pictures with contrast, brightness, making it negative (interesting to do that) -- but nothing really jumps out clearly to me. That said, I'd suspect you are seeing tobiyaki or yubashri as Franco thought. Some of these things are quite similar and have subtle differences that change what they are called. How often have we wished for a real expert to be sitting next to us to explain these things to us! (sigh)

 

Ron H.

[jrs]

more pictures

[jrs]

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

The shinogi-ji looks to be in masame. isn't it ?

[jrs]

Hello,

 

The shinogi-ji looks to be in masame. isn't it ?

It is a mokume with Masame elements to it. Or vice-versa.

James

[paulb]

James,

a couple of questions from your images. Initially I thought the blade was suriage but from the images the hamon appears to drop off just above the ha machi is that correct? If so it would suggest it is ubu.

I am doing this from memory and late-ish so my memory might be off, but it is maru mune with distinctive patches of mokume in it. could that suggest Gassan (I mean the original not the Sadakzu Shin Shinto school)? I saw a wakazashi papered to Gassan from around 1400, I think it is now in the Royal Armouries Leeds, This had very disitinctive clear mokume patches with masame. The combination created the impression of a type of Ayasugi.

From your images the nakago does not look that old although it certainly seems to have had a lot of modifications/fittings in its time. Either that or someone is trying to make it look older than it is which is always a possibility.

Thanks for posting this it certainly is giving pause for thought

Regards

Paul

[mdiddy]

How about Sue-Koto Shitahara school? I was also thinking Uda or Mokusa Hoju, but the mokume is a bit loose. Moreover, the maru mune is very perplexing and monkeywrenching my kantei.

 

If this is ubu, then I suppose the extra mekugi-ana are for style points? Cautiously judging from the pictures, the bottom mekugi-ana looks a good bit older than the others. I could understand its placement for tachi mounts but this does not strike me as a sword that was tachi mounted. If the bottom mekugi-ana is not for show, and not for tachi mounts, then how would this be ubu? Is there evidence of machi okuri? Deducing the original length would go a long way to resolving era and maybe help put the maru mune in context.

[Toryu2020]

My vote would be for Shinshinto or later, maybe Hayama Enshin given the marumune -

 

I think we need to see a close up of just one of the nie clusters you are trying to identify - pooling of nie in the valleys of the hamon on something like this makes me think ara-nie like that seen in say later Satsuma works...

 

my two bits anyway,

-t

[jrs]

Thanks for everyones interesting comments. I can see the hamon run into the nakago, the hadori runs off just past the machi and one side of the nakago is filed down with almost no shinogi left, so I do believe that this blade is suriage/o-suriage, unless someone went to great lengths to make it look that way on purpose.

 

I did find another picture that shows an area of the "anomaly" more clearly. Plus a few more showing the hada.

 

James

 

This one show it above the hamon as a white area in the bottom 1/2 of the picture. The activity in question is made of very fine nie i believe because it looks moist and it sparkles a little. In this example it runs for several inches mimicking the hamon. In other places, it is just a cloud of clump above the hamon. It doesn't appear near the shinogi at all.

 

And hear are clearer pictures of the hada.

[runagmc]

I'm not 100% sure what it should be labeled as (other than ji-nie), but it looks like it appears under the shinogi too... .JPG]

 

It could be that the lighter area's are formed from ko-nie or nioi, and the nugui hasn't darkened these area's as well during polishing... It's hard to say without it in hand...

[mdiddy]

From the 1st couple of pics, my opinion is that the anomaly is yubashiri. Seeing the latest pics do not change that opinion. Here is a great older thread on differences between ji nie, tobiyaki, and yubashiri: http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... 4&start=30. Once you get past the BS, pg. 3 is best with Guido's definitions and Reinhard's example of Soshu HIROMITSU. Do any features from their examples align with what you are seeing?

 

Seeing the updated photos of hada makes me want to double down on my Shitahara kantei. And I will pretend for now to not have noticed the maru mune.

[cabowen]

I tend to side with Tom on the Satsuma idea....I have seen many Satsuma with this type of zanguri mokume hada. Shitahara mokume often more or less has the mokume "lined up", and their hamon is usually tighter and without a lot of activity.

[mdiddy]

Shitahara mokume often more or less has the mokume "lined up",

 

This sounds a bit anecdotal. Can you provide some evidence or pictures to further describe?

 

Thanks!

 

Matt

[Ron STL]

Maru-mune, you sure don't see that very often. Nakago certainly looks naturally aged and that hada is exceptionally bold/vivid, again like koto era.

 

Ron H.

[mdiddy]

Ron,

 

I agree and think this sword is well older than Shinshinto. I noticed on the picture of the maru mune that the nakago looks noticeably thicker than the mune at the mune machi so maybe this sword has seen a few polishes in its past.

 

Matt

[cabowen]

 

This sounds a bit anecdotal. Can you provide some evidence or pictures to further describe?

 

Thanks!

 

Matt

 

Here is an example from Bob Benson's site:

 

JG#1 Bushu Ju Terushige Saku In Mounts and shirasaya - With NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon certificate and a sayagaki by Tanobe Michihiro. 36.6cm nagasa

 

...

This great collectible is a testament that the Shitahara school produced some outstanding swords. While the 19th and early 20th century thinking had lumped this school in with the Bungo Takata, Kongyobyohei Sue Mihara, etc works ..... The complaint by sword smiths was that the hada was ugly or dirty. The opposite is thought today as people like this type of hada which is called Uzumaki hada ( whirlpool grain). It stands out and shows mokume grain in a line going up the middle of the ji area. Others are a combination of itame and ayasugihada. While other swords will show the swirling of the whirlpool rising up from the habuchi into the ji area. So it is with this piece. ....

[mdiddy]

mokume grain in a line going up the middle of the ji area

 

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