Translation of mei

[Derek79]

Hey all. Came across Nihonto message board a few days ago while doing some off-again on-again research on a sword my grandfather brought back from the Pacific Theater. We don't know the story of it, where he got it, etc. our best guess is that he most likely obtained it on either Iwo Jima or Okinawa, as he was on both islands. Found it in a box with some pictures from his service after he passed back in 1990. The picture is of the mei on the tang. There is nothing on the opposite side. Right now the blade is with my dad, but I am looking to possibly have it restored and displayed. When we found it the saya was falling apart (black lacquer was falling off, wood seams coming apart), there was no tsuba and the habaki is kind of beat up. Also the handle was missing, just bare tang. The sword itself is in pretty decent shape compared to others I've seen, and I'm really curious as to the history (if it can be ascertained) of it, and then start the saving process to have it restored.

 

Thanks

 

Derek S.

[Veli]

Hi Derek!

 

Your blade is Signed Echigo no Kami Kanesada. The signature looks good to me. Please see this topic:http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6922

 

Veli

[Geraint]

Hello Derek and welcome.

 

Your sword is signed Echigo no kami Kanesada. Echigo is a place, (no) kami is a title and the name of the smith is Kanesada. There are at least three generations using this name between 1643 and 1680 so the sword is Shinto or New sword period. You do not give the dimensions of the sword or its condition. A full length picture of the blade, close up of the tip section and the part just above the habaki would be useful. If you do decide to restore it is quite usual for blades to be mounted in a plain wooden set of mounts called shirasaya after polishing. I know everyone here will advise you to save up and have the work done by a trained professional in order to preserve this sword.

 

It is sometimes the case that Japanese military officers would carry an older blade such as this to war in military mounts but if the scabbard was wooden and lacquered then it is more likely a civilian sword with a leather combat cover if it came form the battle field.

 

Hope this is some help. Others, more expert than I may be able to confirm the signature or the generation.

 

All the best.

[Veli]

This mei matches the nidai Kanesada/Terukane very closely. And that's a big name! More pictures of the blade, please!!!

 

Veli

[Derek79]

Wow, ok I totally wasn't expecting this. Wow. I will post all pictures I have. My sister was just visiting my parents and took the pictures I asked her to, as I was going to "steal" the sword the next time I could take leave and work on getting it restored and back to my dad as a surprise (he actually thinks I have it, he forgot it's in his den). Give me some time to resize so that they aren't the huge 4-8MB files that my sister took on her macro setting for the camera. I think there actually some better ones of the tang and she did take some full length ones and the tip and I think some of the habaki, as I have come across that those are important while trolling NHB in the past week. I haven't seen the sword in over a year, I want to say it's a large wakizashi, blade is ballpark 19-21 inches.

 

 

---

Derek S. (edit, need to set up my signature to have this......haha)

[Derek79]

ok so I'm having problems resizing the full length without losing a bunch of detail. So here is the full length with saya. Wood/black lacquer, I understand the confusion as in all my research this has never added up (background he never served in the occupation force, and other than Iwo Jima, Okinawa and some minor islands, was only called back to service for Korea as a "depot trainer" in San Diego). There was an indentation about 2-3 inches down in the wood and lacquer for possibly a belt attachment (????) at the top (opening) of the saya had a very aged brass/copper ring that has been lost in the 12 years since we discovered this....it's moved several times and always been just "tossed" into the "den." The second in this is another of the tang and mei. It looks cleaned up but it hasn't been touched, I think it's an effect of the camera flash.

 

---

Derek S.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Derek,

Don't know what you have in mind for restoration of your sword; maybe you don't either. If you're thinking about having the sword polished you need to know that it will be quite expensive (between $2,000 and $3,000) to have the work done by a competent professional and, in the long run, even more expensive if you have the work done by a self trained amateur (he'll ruin the sword). What's more, it may not be a good idea to have the sword polished if it is to hang on display in your father's house and he isn't prepared to learn and practice proper care. Polishes are very easily damaged. A bit of rust or a few scratches and your money is down the drain.

Polish isn't necessary for preservation of the blade, and since every polish moves the blade closer to showing coarse core steel, they should be done only rarely. Until the sword is owned by someone who is prepared and willing to take proper care, it probably is best left as is.

BTW, I'm not saying that you or your father don't care; I don't know you. Just that polishes in the hands of beginners often get spoiled. I'm also saying nothing about restoring the mounts; that you can do without risking the blade.

Grey

[Derek79]

Ok. This is an exercise in pain. Recently switched to Mac. Just got done MC-ing a Navy LCDR's retirement ceremony (and partaking in the grog)( and trying to get these things to meet the size requirements. haha. slow goings tonight folks.

[Derek79]

Grey,

Thanks for the input. I'm really trying to figure out what to do with this piece. Like I said, my father thought I had it, and I've been trying to figure out what to do with it for him for awhile. While the blade isn't in perfect condition (a few nicks in the cutting edge and a chipped tip) I'd rather keep it as is and get the fittings redone. It's sharp as all get out (I remember sneaking a look at it as a kid ~12-13 yrs old and slicing my arm open, still have the scar) as is. Honestly, I don't know if I'd trust it shipped over seas if it really is this old. As I've seen on this board "no polish is better than an amateur polish." I think I'd rather get the fittings done then decide/save up for a polish.

[Derek79]

Here are the close ups of the tang and mei. I don't know if the quality is any better or pictures or any clearer. I'm completely new to this genre of collection. My passion has thus far lied in firearms, although this is starting to become far more fun and exciting VS tracing a simple serial number.

[Derek79]

And finally the tip. Not the best quality but the best I can do right now. The tip is chipped and obviously the blade along the tip and a couple spots down the cutting edge are nicked. There are more photos, but really none add to what's shown. The only pictures I have of the portion above the habaki are the full lenghts, which aren't the best quality due to the flash glare. The major reason I've not been adamant in my research was I was told by an "expert" that the green tint to the blade denoted mass production and acid etching.

[Derek79]

Veli -

Thanks for the link. This is pretty amazing stuff. I didn't realize how deep all this could go in the research. I may have (to my wife's dismay) found a new looooooooong term hobby.

[nagamaki - Franco]

In terms of polishing one alternative to a complete expensive restoration, especially before the mei on this sword has been validated, is to have a 'window' placed on the sword. A window is a full polish on only a section of the sword to reveal its full workmanship and beauty. This would not only give you an idea of what the sword would look like in full polish, but, also, if you were to ever submit the sword to a shinsa for certification it would make the judge's job much easier in determining if the mei is good.

If you have been following the recent threads here on the NMB about the upcoming San Francisco show there will be polishers from Japan there placing windows on swords, an opportunity on many fronts. Otherwise you will have to make arrangements on your own or go through a dealer/broker. There are 2 fully trained polishers in North America and a few others capable of performing this service.

[Derek79]

Franco

No I hadn't seen that. Honestly I've gotten lost in all the details on NMB. Think I need to lean back and slow down in my attempts to absorb as much as possible. Unfortunately I won't be able to take advantage of the San Fran show...I'm at the mercy of the military right now and am moving halfway across a continent in about a week. I will have to keep an eye out. I truly figured that this was either a mass produced militaria or maybe something in the time period just previous to WWII, where I would (probably be bashed here) wouldn't mind an amateur polishing the sword as it would be for aesthetics only and kept in the family. Now with the potential history behind it...that really changes things...kind of like taking a repro M1 carbine and restoring it yourself or getting your hands on an original M1 Garand and having a true gunsmith do it for you.

[runagmc]

Derek, like other have said, your sword is potentially valuable. It would be a good idea to put a thin coat of mineral oil on only the blade part (not the tang) so it doesn't rust. I don't know what 'expert' you showed the sword to, but I've never heard anything like that. Any staining showing up on the blade now has nothing to do with the way it was manufactured.

If you ever have the oportunity to show it to a real expert, that would be your best chance to learn anything definitive about it. It looks promising from the pictures (I see what looks like a gunome-midare hamon and the shape looks right for a mid 1600's wakizashi), but the condition of the blade doesn't allow us to judge the quality of the craftsmanship, which would be very important to attribute it to a smith like the nidai Echigo no Kami Kanesada, who is known for high quality work like this, http://www.choshuya.co.jp/1/english_tra ... nesada.htm

[nagamaki - Franco]

Derek, if there is a chance that this sword and mei are valid take the time to do things correctly, even if that means putting it off for another day. In the mean time learn how to take good and proper care of this sword.

 

PS Derek, newbies reading this, go to the articles section of this board and begin reading. Here's one to get you started, after all, here people are about to spend a pretty penny of their hard earned money, it only makes sense to have some idea of why other than it looks shiny and new. http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/polishing_cleaning.pdf

[Veli]

The mei (signature), mekugi-ana (peg hole) placement, nakago jiri (tang end) shape, overall shape, gunome midare hamon, none of them seem to significantly differ from the examples we can find for the 2nd generation Echigo no Kami Kanesada/Sakakura Gonnoshin Terukane. I am not an expert, and even experts cannot say anything definite from photos alone, but please treat this blade like it was an authentic Nidai Kanesada blade, until you get further proof. If it is genuine, it is an irreplaceable piece of art made by one of the great masters of the late 17th c. All the damage to the tip and cutting edge might well be restorable by a polisher who has received proper training in Japan.

 

Here's what your blade might look like if would be genuine and in full polish

http://www.choshuya.co.jp/1/0806/member_frame_sword.htm (Scroll down to number 12/page 20)

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/A68500_W7000_PUP_E.htm

 

 

Veli

[Geraint]

And then when you have put your eyeballs back in their sockets remember that this is for a blade in Japanese polish and with authentication papers. However you will have judged that we are quite excited about this sword so please handle with extreme care. There is a lot of expertise here who can advise you on the appropriate craftsmen to carry out any work you plan to have done on the sword and if it comes to it the business of getting it authenticated in Japan.

 

Think of it as having found a Canalettto oil painting in your Dad's den, this too is a work of art and if genuine is an important thing. (And this comment may spark off a whole debate about the relative merits of Canaletto and the smith who made your blade.)

 

Enjoy the learning curve!

 

Cheers

[Surfson]

Derek, I've just read this thread only, but have a few observations. First, it appears that you have a genuine sword made by a noted and admired maker in the 17th century. As such, it is almost certainly well made. As long as it hasn't acquired some fatal flaws along the way - hagire is the big one here, and you can search this word to find out more about it - I would think that it is eminently worthy of restoration. As it sits, it is worth about $1500-2000 I would think, and after you invest $3500-4000 in a proper polish, shirasaya, NBTHK papers etc., it will be worth in the $5-7000 range I would say (maybe more depending on how it turns out and the level of papers it gets). So you can see that you should only polish it for your own enjoyment and for preservation of the sword, not as a means to increase resale value. As Grey points out, you should only do this if you and your Dad are prepared to baby it, as a polish is like an eggshell. The perfection of it produced by the polisher and maker is what we are awed by, and a tiny nick or scratch robs it of that perfection. If you decide to do this, there are many on the NMB that can give you advice as to who in Japan to send it to etc. Congratulations on having a genuine and wonderful samurai sword!

[Derek79]

Ok. Definitely a lot of information to go through already. So potentially nidai Kanesada? Seems to be a pretty big deal, so I'll have to look into the smith some more. Already this has raised even more questions.

 

1) Should further discussion be carried out in the Nihonto board?

2) As I am new to this community, is there an acceptable way to get fittings done to display as is while waiting for a polish/full restoration (is it even called a restoration?)

3) Can someone point me to some good resources on the subject so I can educate myself, not complaining about NMB at all, I tend to get distracted by the shiny pictures and end up way out in left field when I was actually trying to find the pitcher's mound.

4) Is there a listing or registry of persons capable of doing a polish?

5) Same as above but for fittings (as I understand it you need the foundation polish, then fittings then the finish polish yes?)

6) Would sending the piece for shinsa be the only way to actually verify the smith? I frankly don't care about the worth of the piece, as it has a sentimental value that I can't put a price to. The initial placement of the piece at ~300 years old was enough for me to want to get it done right. Due to the history of the sword in my own family, I will be very hesitant to send it away...

 

7) With the amount of care needed once it is polished, I personally wouldn't have it done right now. I still have potentially 2 more moves left with the military, and that's only if I retire at the 20 year mark, and would not trust that the sword would get proper care in that situation. I also have a special needs brother who lives with my parents, and in discussions with my parents they would not feel comfortable having it displayed or even in a place where he would know about it just for his own safety. Part of the reason it was buried at the bottom of a box in the back of the den closet for the past 10 years.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Derek,

 

Is it possible you provide us a picture of the nakago without habaki and with the mune please ?

[Derek79]

Jacques -

It will be awhile. The sword is not in my possession and had a hard time explaining over the phone the pictures needed. I will be able to get them in about a month or so and will put them up. Now that I'm over the initial excitement of the potential possibilities of this sword I will be taking my time in getting it and planning out what exactly I'm going to do with it, who to contact and line everything up. First reason is that I don't want to rush into it, second is the price attached. I may even have to give up my next rifle purchase which shocked my wife speechless when I said I'd be willing to do that, haha.

[Bazza]

Derek,

 

I've been collecting nearly 50 years and things certainly are different these days from when I started, even up to 10 or so years ago. Knowing all that has been revealed to you by way of excellent advice (polish etc etc) was apparent to me very early on. However, knowing it and finding it are two completely different things. Along the way I had numerous polishes done and bought swords already in polish. Nothing seemed "quite right" and I held back committing my best swords to polish and "the works" in Japan. It was 25 years before I sent the first one and I was completely, I mean COMPLETELY, happy with the result.

 

So Derek, your sword has already waited decades in its centuries-old life and it doesn't matter how long it takes for you to commit it, but my candid advice is to wait as long as it takes. Meanwhile, go to sword shows wherever you can, cultivate good collectors and see swords whenever you can, and trawl the internet in your spare time to look at good examples - and read as much as you can. If you ever look like coming to Australia drop me a PM. I'm sure we can show you things to enjoy...

 

Best wishes in your endeavors,

Barry Thomas

(aka BaZZa.)

[Veli]

1) If you someday can supply more photos, we'd be delighted! Maybe doing the recommended gentle blade maintenance with oil and uchiko will remove some accumulated dirt from the surface and allow us to see some of the hamon... Anyway, this discussion has been a pleasure after several threads where people tried to find the ugliest possible Chinese fakes on Ebay

2) So you would not be happy with the shirasaya alone (that is made as a part of the polishing project) ? Having a koshirae made for your blade will be very costly, and the saya would probably need remaking/cleaning after the blade has been polished.

3) You can find a list of recommended books in here: http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/faq.html

4) Some discussion about high-level polish: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8324&p=68345&hilit=benson+bowhay+polish#p68345

6) There are some experts (like Bob Benson) in the U.S. capable of giving a much more reliable estimate about the authenticity of your blade, if they could see it in hand. But the NBTHK or NTHK or NTHK NPO shinsa is the only way that practically leaves no room for doubt or dispute whether your blade is shoshin or not. But if the blade will be sent to Japan for restoration, shinsa would not be a problem. There are also shinsas in the U.S. once or twice a year.

 

I do not know if this has occurred to you, but the timespan of a high-level restoration project and consequent shinsa submittal is measured in years, not in months. So please take all the time you need to think about it!

 

BR, Veli

[Derek79]

I greatly appreciate all the advice and answers to my questions. This is a field that I really have no knowledge in, and have seen others taken advantage of by 'experts' and I feel like I was welcomed into a culture that is passionate about what they do and excited to help the newbies get a foot hold in without going over their heads. I have plenty to learn/read/get myself up to speed on so I will probably be spending more time on that. This is definitely a long term deal (I'm not even looking to have it completely done until...well I don't even know several years at least).

I won't even have the sword in my possession for at least a couple months and have several people that I have been told to get a hold of regarding the process. As it stands now, yes Veli, shirisaya is definitely acceptable at this point and most likely what I will do at this point, and really I think I'd be happiest with it that way so I can focus on saving for the important stuff, like window/full polish, shinsa etc. I would probably look to get a window done on the blade and follow the boards and see if I can't get to one of the NTHK conventions...I heard there have been a few in Chicago, if there is one there, I'd probably take a week of vacation, swing through Omaha (where I grew up) grab a buddy and hit Chi-town to submit the sword for shinsa and have a mini vacation. What I'm a little hazy on is if getting a window done would be adequate or if I should get a full polish before submitting for shinsa...or if just cleaning it with dehydrated alcohol and a light oiling would be adequate. It's hard to see, but it's almost as if there is a lacquer coating on the blade itself...it has a green tint that is very very light towards the cutting edge and gets thicker/heavier as it moves to the hamon and is thickest over the shinogi and ji. Don't know if this is residue from my grandfather putting gun/some other oil on it, or a treatment to preserve the blade while it was carried?

 

First order of business besides educating myself is to get the sword and clean/oil it as outlined in the FAQ page and also someone linked a .pdf on this thread that explained how to clean/oil as well. Once this is done I will not put it back in the saya it was found in. Would it be acceptable to display the piece as is (no fittings) on a stand until I can get it to someone to get a shirisaya made for it? The last thing I want to do is clean/oil it then have it get touched/manhandled/stuffed back in a trunk.

 

So I'll probably step back (especially now that the initial OMG! has worn off concerning the possible potential of this piece), ping a few of you with periodic questions and get my ducks in a row. Once I have the piece I will get more/better pictures, especially of what has been requested since the postings of the originals. I will most likely put those new ones into a new thread under the nihonto specific board (linking each thread to the other so people can go back to the beginning without dumping copies of pictures onto the server) as this is kind of drifting away from the original intent of just translation and don't want to pull any focus away from others who are probably cursing me under their breath for sucking up so much of the brain power on these boards :lol:

 

Again, thanks for the help, direction and advice so far. I've been told for years that people who collect nihonto (or art, or statuary, or heck anything older than they are...) are an elitist bunch. Gotta say so far my experience has been pleasant and very informative.

[Lee Bray]

First order of business besides educating myself is to get the sword and clean/oil it as outlined in the FAQ page and also someone linked a .pdf on this thread that explained how to clean/oil as well. Once this is done I will not put it back in the saya it was found in.

 

Spend an hour or two, one or two nights a week, sit back with a beer, cleaning kit and a good light source and have fun. Uchiko and/or isopropyl alcohol will eventually remove all old, dried oil.

 

Before investing in a polish, you want to make sure there are no vertical cracks in the edge, called hagire. They are damned hard to spot on an out of polish blade and they seriously devalue your blade if they are there. They are often fond in the middle of an expensive polish which is not a good experience...

They can be seen prior to polish so take the time and examine the edge during your cleaning sessions.

They're not too common so not trying to scare you, just making you aware of the possibility.

 

As for putting the cleaned blade back into the old saya, I wouldn't worry about it. Any damage that the saya could do to the sword is already done and it will protect the blade from ambient elements. In my neck of the woods, exposed steel quickly gets spotted with rust even if oiled. A cover helps a lot.

Of course, if the saya feels like a tube of grit when you're sliding the sword back in then that's a different story.

 

Consider that if you get shirasaya made for it now prior to polish, there's a chance that contaminants(rust/dirt) from the blade could lodge into the shirasaya and be there when you get the blade polished later.

Also, depending on the level of polish needed, enough steel could be removed to loosen the fit.

I'd save the cost of shirasaya till the sword is being polished.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Derek,

As the scabbard is falling apart and there is no handle, putting the blade back in original mounts won't do it any favors. Scabbard without handle is a formula for a broken point.

Displaying the bare blade on a stand is risky also. Tables/chests get bumped into and guests like to pick these things up, and they break very easily.

Probably best for the sword till you can have shira-saya made is a newspaper scabbard (quite a few layers of paper folded around the blade and folded over at the point and taped together) and secure storage someplace out of sight.

Grey

 

Just read Lee's post above mine and I have a 2nd thought. Lee is right: shira-saya before polish may mean that if the blade is ever polished it will need a 2nd shira-saya after.

You can try this. 1st, you need to make the scabbard whole. Here's a handy and easy fix for sayas that are falling in 2. Sayas are largest circumference at the top where the mouth is and they taper down to the bottom. If you wrap a piece of 1" wide paper around the scabbard and then wrap the paper in 3/4" masking tape, and then slide the tape/paper up the saya, it will tighten as the saya gets larger. If you plan right you can get 3 or 4 very tight bands around the saya that will lock it together, and the paper means no tape will touch the lacquer.

That fixes the saya but you need a handle with pin through the hole to keep the point of the blade away from the inner bottom of the saya. You can jury rig a handle with 2 pieces of wood and duct tape, or you can go a step nicer with 2 pieces of wood hollowed for the blade's nakago and either taped or glued together. Plan it so the bottom of the handle meets the mouth of the saya and keeps the point off bottom. You'll have to drill a hole through your handle and whittle a pin to lock it to the blade.

A bit of bother, not too much though, and your blade is well protected until you can get better.

Grey

[Derek79]

Spend an hour or two, one or two nights a week, sit back with a beer, cleaning kit and a good light source and have fun. Uchiko and/or isopropyl alcohol will eventually remove all old, dried oil.

 

Man after my own heart haha. I doubt that the current saya does any form of protection for the blade, other than providing a modicum of protection to the cutting edge and preventing anyone from getting cut. IF this turns out to be actual Nidai Kanesada/Sakakura I won't mind getting a shirisaya done now to protect the blade until I can get at least the window placed and submitted for shinsa, and another done after a full polishing. If I'm looking at a relic that is ~350 years old, has already been in my family for 60+ years, I intend to keep it as an heirloom for the following generations (once I'm dust it's up to them really, I guess) so a couple of shirisayas done isn't that big of a deal to me (heck I even have a few firearms that have zero sentimental value of which the sales would cover the cost of a couple shirisaya). The one thing that I found interesting while researching Nidai Kanesada/Sakakura was that he was rated O-Wazamono, and even as poorly kept as this blade is, it is SHARP! (in no way am I taking my zero experience and going "IT IS A TRUE Nidai Kanesada...he made sharp blades and this blade is sharp" haha, I just found it interesting).

 

Grey -

I guess I wasn't clear. My "display" would most likely be a wall mount over my gun safe in the walk in closet. The gun safe is ~700 pounds and bolts to the slab foundation, about as wide as this sword is long and about two foot deep and 5 feet tall, so accidental bumping of the blade would be unlikely due to the massiveness of the safe and the fact that even my wife doesn't go into my closet (she has her own gun safe). However if the best bet is to wrap it and keep it in the gun safe (fire rated 60 minutes at 1200 degrees F) I'll do that.

[Lee Bray]

I doubt that the current saya does any form of protection for the blade, other than providing a modicum of protection to the cutting edge and preventing anyone from getting cut.

 

You'd be surprised but then I base my experience on HK weather. When it gets humid here, moist dust circulates and it's a killer for carbon steel if it's not covered.

You seem to know what you're about and if you're ok with a couple of shirasaya, go for it.

Given the reasonable condition of the current polish, I can't imagine too much steel being removed so maybe one shirasaya will suffice anyway.

 

Good luck with the project.

[Derek79]

Alright so I think this will be my last update here, as I really need to focus on moving my family from Seattle to San Antonio in about a week. Just to let you guys know here is what I am doing (throwing this out there so that the true collectors aren't biting their nails wondering if a novice like me is going to completely FUBAR the whole shebang.)

 

Thanks for all the info on shirasaya from Lee, Grey and Franco (specifically to you guys, and again, HUGE thanks again to everyone else). When I check out the sword sometime in August I may go with modifying the current saya as outlined by Grey above. If (in my extremely limited experience) I am not comfortable doing that I will do a wrapped paper shirasaya in order to protect the blade from the elements. I guess I didn't think it all the way through, and didn't realize that those out there that make saya/shirasaya etc are artists in themselves and it would be a waste of time/money to get that done twice for the same sword. so I will do that, get in touch with a polisher to see if they can assess the sword and place a window on the blade and then worry about shinsa. once all that is done I'll go forward with the full polish as due to the state of the tip it will probably require a good foundation polish (and I will be going back and researching all of this, I'm kind of regurgitating advice right now )