Picked up a military officer's sword but can't identify it

[cplnorton]

I bought this officer's sword today. It's fresh out of an estate, but the handle wrapping is torn up. So I need a good recommendation on who to sent it to, to get it re-wrapped. Or can I buy just a WWII handle by itself. I've seen them on ebay but I figured it would be really hard to find one that fits.

 

I'm still learning on Japanese swords. But I believe this is a hand forged blade because of the wavy lines on the blade. Under the handle is is pretty rusted. I don't know if this is maybe an older family blade redone for WWII or this is a WWII made timeframe blade. When I look closely I see maybe some Japanese characters, but I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me or not.

 

Any and all help would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cplnorton]

More pics can be seen at this link.

 

http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/Japanese%20sword%20hand%20forged/

 

Thanks in Advance.

 

Steve

[hxv]

Hi cplnorton,

 

Please sign your name. It's a rule here. Your sword is a nice find. It's definitely not WW2 era. I would guess shinto. It's out of polish, making it very hard/impossible to see details in the hamon and hada. I like the suguta, though. There is some funky damage on the nakago. It looks like the nakago is cracking. May be it's just the pictures. The saya seems to be in excellent condition. As far as the tsuka goes, all the parts except the menuki are there, so you can purchase the gunto menuki and send it out to be rewrapped. Wrapping the tsuka is not hard, but doing a good job is (as is always the case with literally everything). It depends on your inclination. I enjoy the fruit of my labor, so I have learned to rewrap tsuka and have done it on two of my old tsuka. I am sure people will find lots of fault with DIY tsuka rewrap jobs, but to each his own. Anyhow, congratulations on a very nice first find (I assume).

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[cplnorton]

I googled Shinto period and I found a date of 1600 to 1764. Is that the date you believe the blade is from? If so that would be so neat. I'm a big history buff so to think about a blade that had been around that long is so cool.

 

I had to google the terms, but the tang or the nakago I don't believe was cracking. I looked it over a lot yesterday with a magnifying glass to try to figure out if there was a signature but couldn't tell if there was. It's really pitted. But I don't remember seeing anything. But I will double check again.

 

I did find the menuki I believe. I just bought a set that is supposed to be original on gunbroker. I emailed the seller and and he said they are correct for a WWII sword. Here is a link to the Menuki:

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=288336402

 

I am like you to about doing projects myself. I found some videos of how to wrap the handle. I might try it or how much is it to get it professionally done, and who do you recommend to do it? If it's like $300 to get it rewrapped, I might try it myself, but if it's like a $100, I might just send it away to get it done professionally.

 

Thanks for you help by the way, and I went back and fixed my signatures. :D

 

Thank you!

Steve

[cabowen]

I would think Shinto is a bit of a stretch.....The nakago looks too fresh and I would be inclined to think later shinshinto at the earliest....Looks to be a well made blade regardless...

[Bruno]

I think it is more likely an oil quenched showato, not traditionnal.

 

 

I would not recommend to re-wrap it by your own but ask a pro to do it, price should be between 100 and 200 usd in the USA.

[Bruno]

I would think Shinto is a bit of a stretch.....The nakago looks too fresh and I would be inclined to think later shinshinto at the earliest....Looks to be a well made blade regardless...

 

OK now my previous comment looks really stupid! :lol:

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

It may be a MINO SEKI sword.

 

A wild guess DAIDO school.

 

/Martin

[cplnorton]

If you guys need better pics of something let me know. Tell me what are to take a picture of and I can even try different color backgrounds so I don't drown out the blade. The blade looks better in person, but the my lights and white background might be affecting it some in the pics.

 

Would this help?

 

Thanks for your time gentlemen.

 

Steve

[cplnorton]

Actually I was looking at it again, I think I found a stamp. Does this mean anything or am I just seeing something that isn't there?

 

[Lindus]

Just a lamination,no problem but dont look for a stamp as this blade is probably Meiji'ish.

Nice find,well done.

Roy

[kusunokimasahige]

The scabbard to me looks pre-WWII Gunto type 98, colour pre-war. So a sword from the 30's probably.

 

The blade itself to me does not look Shinto. It looks late Meiji to Showa, oil quenched and the Hamon looks etched to me.

 

Water quenched could be a possibility but if those exist with etched Hamon I am not sure of.

 

Nakago looks not too old, but it might still be that the blade is late Meiji.

 

Fittings look very crisp. A re-wrap certainly is in order here.

 

I do not see any arsenal stamps.

 

KM

[Brian]

Etched??

 

 

Typical Seki hamon...blade doesn't look earlier than 1900's to me. NOT etched though..maybe water quenched and forged. Any signs of any openings or hada?

 

Brian

[Jamie]

I think a small opening and some forging lines are in pic 37. I doubt this is showato. My bet is Shinshinto.

[cplnorton]

The blade I do believe has forging lines on it. I tried to take some pics, but my flash is making it worse. I'm going to get a different back drop and try this again and post pics tonight.

 

I'm a welder and when I weld on metal and grind it flat you can always tell a little bit on where the weld was. The marks on the blade remind me of this, and I'm guessing this is what you are guys are referring to as forging lines.

 

There are a few areas on the blade as well that look like a small air bubbles were in the metal, it's hard to describe but I see this in welding as well in areas around the welds. It just like it. Also on the backside of the sword there are a few spots where there are these lines as well.

 

I don't know my head from my butt when it comes to Japanese swords, but when someone mentioned forging lines, it makes sense with what I'm seeing on the blade in person. Now if I can just get my camera to take some good pics for you guys. lol

 

Thank you to eveyone for your input.

 

Steve

[runagmc]

I see hada in the second pic. The lamination pattern from folding and forge welding the steel is called hada.

[Geraint]

Hi Steve and welcome.

 

Nice sword to start with. Whatever the age it is worth re wrapping the handle. Sounds like you have some practical expertise so worth having a go yourself but probably worth getting this book, http://www.tsukamaki.net/book_order.htm Doing the wrap is not difficult, doing it really well is and it will sit there staring you down if you get it wrong.

 

Have fun, this is the start of a lifetimes fascination, you do realise that , don't you?

 

Oh, and bye the bye don't be tempted to do anything to the blade or the tang, anything! Easy to wreck without knowing that you have done it. A little light oil is all that you need to do.

[Geraint]

Last thought and then I will shut up. That mark on the tang, any sign of anything on the other side in the same place?

[cplnorton]

Last thought and then I will shut up. That mark on the tang, any sign of anything on the other side in the same place?

 

No no other marks on the opposite side. I had thought maybe it was another hole that maybe was filled in, but it's not I believe. The other side is perfect in that spot.

[Lindus]

Certainly looks as though there is hada,as to the Hamon Perhaps KM saw the regularity of the Hamon and presumed it to be etched. At one time I had a range of San bon sugi blades the later period the temper line became very accurate & regular but was water tempered , also one sword with a superb temper line of cherry blossoms floating down a stream, could have been mistaken for etching.

 

Thing with this whole Hobby Steve,lay back,take from it and the NMB the slow but very enjoyable learning curve. Try taking the blade into the garden,in the shade, and take your picture along ,eg, at an angle, you may find this works better than flash.

 

Think Geraint was hopeing you would find a filled in Mekugi ana,ever positive man if a little young.

 

An aside,I to was a welder in a shipyard untill 20,those years were fun but a helluva way to make a living .

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Geraint]

Yeah.

 

Got it in one Roy. Remember that Hizen sword with the mei over the filled mekugi ana?

[cplnorton]

Last thought and then I will shut up. That mark on the tang, any sign of anything on the other side in the same place?

 

Hey I think you are right and I was wrong. I looked again and there is just a faint line of what looks like a filled in hole on the opposite side. It's not as noticeable as the other side, but it is there. What does that mean then?

 

Steve

[Lindus]

Post a scan,use a flat bed scanner for this,easy and far better image.

Could mean that in the manufacture it had a folding flaw that came thru on uru & omote, could be a mekugi ana.....show us in detail.

Roy

[cplnorton]

Ok I went out in the shade and took the pics. I'm pretty sure it is a filled in hole. One side is raised up, and the other side is indented in that area. I can't really get good pics of either, but in the sun it was very noticable, especially the side raised up.

 

Raised up side.

 

 

Close up of rasied up side.

 

 

Other side is indented in that area. And there is a faint line in a circle that is hard to pick up with the camera.

 

Steve

 

 

Other pic of the indented area.

 

 

Pic of the temper line.

 

 

Some what looks like air bubbles in the steel.

 

 

Some forging marks in the steel.

 

[cplnorton]

Here is the link to this last set of pics. I took about 60 or so outside. If you guys need better pics of anything let me know.

 

Steve

 

http://s621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/cplnorton2/Japan%20sword%20outside/

[Surfson]

Nice find, assuming you didn't pay too much for it. Most of us would wish to have had this as our starter blade. Looks like a true samurai sword to me, meaning made before 1860 or so, although those putting it during Meiji may have a argument to be made. There appears to be clear hada in several photos. The tang was poorly reshaped it appears, probably before it was mounted for the war. I think I might see a large flaw in the mune of the blade in a couple of the photos. Is that black mark a hole in the back of the blade or some kind of dirt or something? I agree with whoever guessed Mino, based on the gunome hamon bordering on sanbonsugi. Enjoy it!

[cplnorton]

I have $450 into it. So not too much I don't think for what it is. Yes there is small spot on the back of the blade. I think it is actually a flaw in the blade from when it was made or something. It's actually pretty small but in the pic it looks much bigger than what it is.

 

By the way I might send it off to get it re-wrapped. I found this guy for $145, is this who you would recommend?

 

Steve

 

http://www.tsukamaki.net/index.htm

[Tcat]

At $450 you did no wrong Steve, my guess is late shinshinto / meiji, mino school. Thomas Buck is a well known and respected tsukamakishi.

 

Regards,

[Surfson]

Well done. With a good handle wrap, it will be worth at least $2K. My advice is to enjoy it and use it to educate yourself about samurai swords. Your next ten purchases should be books.

[kusunokimasahige]

I would not know about the price setting, but Roy Lindus was right on the mark when he wrote what he did.

 

I thought the in my eyes too regular hamon pattern could and did point to oil quenched showa.

 

Seeing the more close up images however it does not look like a factory blade but forged and water quenched.

I would still argue that it might not be dating from before Meiji, but I will leave that final decision up

to the experts. It might as well be Seki.

 

KM