Nice Tsuba for Discussion...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just read through the four pages of comments about a fairly poor looking tsuba. No disrespect to the original owner as we all must start some where and I have spent 1,000s of dollars on low end tsuba and nihonto when first starting out. Here is a nice tsuba to discuss. I am hoping to maybe get one complete page of replies about what the openwork design is or isn't. I love the hammer work on the surface and iron is also very hard. The rim displays fine grained tekkotsu not the large size ones observed in many Owari tsuba. The measurements are 7.2 cm ✕ 7.0 cm, 3.5 mm at the rim and 2.5 mm at the seppa-dai. It reminds me of Saotome school work circa the Momoyama Period. The design is simple but bold. I was thinking it was a mokko design but when you consider it mounted on a sword with the nakago-ana filled it reminds be a Christian Cross. I remember talking about this to one of message board members at the Florida Show this year after purchasing the tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[sanjuro]

Hi David.

 

Not that I know so very much about tsuba, but I have seen this design on tsuba that predate the introduction of christianity into Japan. I would also have thought that the similarity to a christian cross would have been too overt for it to be intended as such, and those tsuba that are of a christian motif tend to be a great deal more subtle in the inference of a belief in a christian god on the part of the owner.

This basic design more 'in the round', is often seen on smaller tsuba ( Wakizashi sized) intended for naginata, I have noticed. :D

[Lorenzo]

Beautiful.

[docliss]

I am full of admiration for David’s tsuba, but Christian? I think not ….

 

The need for Christian symbolism to be very discrete during the Momoyama and early Edo periods has led to the imagining of its presence in numerous doubtful examples. As a result of a comprehensive review, published by Fred Geyer in the Catalogue of the 2nd International Convention and Exhibition of the Kokusai Tosogu Kai, many of those tsuba previously identified as being Tokeishi are now generally recognised as being Kirishitan in origin. But to identify mokkō-gata tsuba as demonstrating Christian symbolism solely by reason of their shape is clearly going too far.

 

Two ‘Christian tsuba’ have appeared on the market within the last few years which may be described both as discrete – the crosses being hidden by the seppa and tsuka of the sword when mounted – and overt. But these may be examples of later modifications of earlier tsuba, added for commercial reasons.

 

Can any members post convincing examples of such tsuba?

 

John L.

 

Edited to Fred Geyer - thank you. John L.

[Bazza]

...As a result of a comprehensive review, published by Fred Guyer

John L.

I believe his name is Fred Geyer http://www.swordsandtsuba.com/home.html

 

BaZZa.

[Curran]

WIth David's, the Christian cross theory doesn't hold water for me. I hope this doesn't turn into too much of a discussion along that path.______________________

 

The tsuba is a simple and nice tsuba probably of the Saotome school.

If more photos were provided, it is probably very thin and of hardness that reminds one of point hardened tank armor. Had a bit of what I would call depleted uranium dark blue-black color to it. Some have more of a volcanic rock type of tactile black feel.

 

Light, clean, nimble in design, and they fell almost impervious to rust. I am partial to them, though not so much to the Tembo hot stamp tsuba that came concurrently and thereafter. Earlier Saotome may not be very complex of designs, but are very functional and pleasant.

[Brian]

Yeah, the Christian theory won't hold water on this one. And with the Doc's ones...almost too obvious (even though hidden)

I would think they were added later too, for commercial reasons. But the chance they are original is intriguing. Couldn't get less subtle if you tried...without it being in the open.

Lovely tsuba David. Shows what iron should look like....or at least the difference between decent ground and sterile, flat base work.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for the replys specificly Curran and John L. with the helpful information. I think now the question of the design is answered. I will post more photos of the rim which display a nice turnback once I have a chance after work. The thickness range from 3.5 mm at rim to ~2.5 mm at seppa-dai. I have nice Sanada Tenpo tsuba closely related to the Saotome school in time and place from the late Edo Period that originally lead me and others into thinking it was older then what it was. The really good late ones will do that. Therefore the question of age might not be that easy to answer. :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Curran]

David,

 

How thick it the tsuba at the seppa dai vs at the mimi?

Probably about 2mm to 3mm at the seppa dai?

[docliss]

The measurements are 7.2 cm ✕ 7.0 cm, 3.5 mm at the rim and 2.5 mm at the seppa-dai.

John L.

[Curran]

 

Bang on for early Saotome work.

[Pete Klein]

Sasano named the theme, "Shiho-wa', four circles, for what it's worth. There is an example in both the '70's and '90's book.

[Henry Wilson]

Maybe a slight hiijack, but I have always felt this is Christian inspired:

 

compared to a Jersualem Cross

 

Although, it could be "lock and keys" theme....

[Soshin]

Hi Henry,

 

I like that tsuba you posted as I have seen it in hand this photo is poor but I am not sure it is a Christian Cross for the reasons given by John L. and which are also discussed in Fred G. article. Here is the photos of my tsuba and the fine granular tekkotsu along the rim. The black arrows are to highlight the small tekkotsu (i.e. iron bones) I hope the photos also show the fine turn back of the rim edge as well.

 

P.S. Pete, thanks for letting me know about another term used to describe this design. I will check both Sasano's books on my bookshelf.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles