Old Tsuba help

[george trotter]

Hello George

I have looked at your previous post but do not see any images, would you let me know where they are?

Grev UK

Hi Grev, here are the pics again (don't know what went wrong)...

Regards,

[Pete Klein]

 

It's worth ONE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS! AH - Ha - Ha - Haaaaaaa!

 

PTT!

[Pete Klein]

George -- from Ito Mitsuru san's book on Hikozo and Shimizu here is one of the tsuba you mentioned in color:

 

[Brian]

Just a little difference between the tsuba from the book, and yours Grev.

Paperweight isn't an insult if it turns out to be no more than one..and since Lorenzo is one of Ford's students, he knows a little about these things.

Might we focus purely on the "iron" ground here? Not much more than that needs to be examined frankly.

I know it takes a lot to bring Pete out of hibernation...so that also tells a lot.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

LOL - well, thank you Brian. Very kind of you. I must say that I am sometimes reminded here of a great line from a fun 1980's movie called 'North Shore' where a kid wins a trip from the mainland to Hawaii to surf the season. He gets there and is attempting to be cool while two pros comment, "Brah -- he so Haole he don't even know he's Haole"! ROFLMAO

[Derek]

If nothing else, while reading the comments, I followed the link to Lorenzo's website. Wow, I find his work to be amazing..... Especially the Kamiyoshi.

 

Derek

[christianmalterre]

Well?-quite asking seriously myself in reading this latest „Experts" comment( ).

And given,that we did find some answers,and also many more unanswered questions-i still ask myself what this questioned Tsuba shall ben put to.

It but seems that some rational explanation is still missing here.

It would certainly be an pitty if some „Experts" reading this-and not yet having had the possibility so to take their´s time telling us sound theories on their´s personal investigation.

Mine first look was in reading TB 17-Page 22/mentioned there is one schoolar who once studied under Nishigaki Kanshiro...which finally lead us to Higo.

(i but did not know that Shimizu Jingo did work parallel to Kanshiro here-This is quite interesting!)( )

If i should be wrong,as it obviously seems as there´s neither a foundation for,or prove(contrary)-i do certainly agree,that we still need an better explanation here.

I think nobody will be adverse to changing hypothesis when new evidence does give rise?

(not willing such will result finally in some equal funny stories relating to an once highly esteemed Tachikanagushi Tsuba-seeing the proprietor running from table to table-asking-“Please,please do tell me it´s an real“...)

-an better explanation is needed here)

Hmmmh?

 

If Not?-then !

 

Christian

[george trotter]

Grev asked the members to help him "find out something about it" . Since then it has been classified as modern Japanese, a fake, reproduction, Meiji, tourist production, hamamono etc and now we have also had a valuation.

Before this turns into a sneering war between members, how about you just tell Grev "something about it" and give him your reasons.

Regards,

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

An observation:

 

In the depiction of the Chasen Tea whisk on the Shimizu tsuba, the tines are not shown folding over at the top.

 

A question:

 

Was Shimizu being literal and showing a style of Chasen where the tines do not fold over, or just making a design that was pleasing to the eye?

 

Discuss....

 

 

Cheers

[ROKUJURO]

.....In the depiction of the Chasen Tea whisk on the Shimizu tsuba, the tines are not shown folding over at the top.

A question:

Was Shimizu being literal and showing a style of Chasen where the tines do not fold over, or just making a design that was pleasing to the eye?....

The design you have in mind applies for new CHASEN. Old and used ones stretch their tines a little out and can appear to be almost straight.

 

Regards,

 

Jean

[Pete Klein]

Jean -- agreed. Hirata Hikozo, Shimizu Jinbei (Shimizu school shodai) and Nishigaki Kanshiro were vassals of Lord Hosokawa Tadaoki, Buddhist name Sansai (1563 - 1645), with Hikozo being the first, coming with Sansai to Kumamoto and is considered to be teacher to Kanshiro. Sansai Was not only a great warrior but a great artist, being involved in poetry, calligraphy and painting along with being one of the important disciples of Sen no Rikyu, Sakai tea master, assistant master to the court of Nobunaga Oda, then master and confidant to Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and one of the Five Friends of Oribe. Sen no Rikyu studied under Takeno Joo and from him learned the concept of Wabi Cha, deeply rooted in Zen. As a top student (and friend) of Rikyu, Sansai followed the Wabi concept in his art and this is expressed in works of the early Higo tsuba masters. The use of a worn chasen would be perfect for Sansai as Wabi is not of the new but in the beauty of diminishment, that brought on by use and the inevitable. (Google 'mono no aware') As Wabi Cha was at the forefront of Momoyama Samurai endeavor, to understand the art found in Momoyama Tosogu (fittings) the study of Wabi Cha concepts and Chadogu is necessary.

 

Grev, as for your tsuba from what I can see it appears to be cast. The two open areas in the right side of the seppa dai have no rational use, (and I do not believe they were put there to lessen weight). My feeling is that these were areas of casting failure, either air pockets or blow-out. If you look at the top and bottom of the nakago ana the ha and mune edges exhibit angular divergence to the right (being viewed from the tsuba omote). If this tsuba had been fitted to a blade that blade's nakago would have to have been in this shape which I have never seen before (although I will fully admit I am not presently a student of the sword), or would have had to have sekigane to parallel them of which there is no evidence of placement. It is also interesting to note that there is no evidence of seppa zuri, wear marks caused by the seppa against the seppadai. This would mean that it was never mounted. If you look at the edges they have been polished to a rounded form. Again, this is generally not seen. The, for lack of a better word, patina is grayish and blotchy and the overall color of the metal is gray. This is not in line with forged tsuba and their patinas. The carving is shallow and rounded which I believe equates to not being carved at all but cast and finished. the gold iroe is thin and runs over onto the mimi in one area, although the use of two different colors of gold at least was thoughtful. If you look at the bottom left the mimi moves away from the design. I have to wonder if this was the result of taking a mould of a tsuba with fukurin and then casting it? In any case when viewed it just plain doesn't look right... and of course as I am no 'expert' I could be totally wrong. If I were you I would most definitely keep it and take it out every six months or so and compare it to your then state of learning so you will be able to see fine points for yourself. Trust me, I learned this way also and made all the mistakes. Simply put, if you make no mistakes you never learn, and if you are incapable of admitting you make mistakes you are incapable of learning at all.

[Brian]

Excellent points!

And one in particular. Keep items such as this, and keep at this hobby. Read online, get together with collectors, attend shows. Every few months, take out your old item, and see how you view it. That's great advice Pete. I look back on many of my first items (swords and fittings) and now think "what the heck was I thinking?"

But it is great for the learning curve. I used to trawl eBay for cheap blades and fittings. Now..if I see one tsuba out of hundreds that even appeals to me on eBay, that is a lot. As you learn, 99.9% of the junk out there loses interest. Fakes become blaringly obvious. Flaws become not acceptable. Lines become unsteady and unnatural.

One thing that struck me about this tsuba is the lines. All the curves are hesitant and jagged. Nothing flowing. Note the lines within the flowers. This isn't any "wabi" or "sabi" or artistic freedom. It is hesitation and lack of skill. Cut by an amateus who doesn't know how to use the chisel yet.

The cutting around the subjects to give them some form of depth is just badly done. There is no real 3D effect..just a badly and hesitantly cut away border trying to make the subject matter stand out. It doesn't succeed.

The patina and quality of the iron is non-existent. As Pete said. That is enough on its own to doom this item.

Ford is still in Japan, but you have heard from a few tsuba collectors and even a Japanese metalwork student. Not sure what else is needed to prove what this is, but those reading will have learned what they need to know I am sure.

Comparing this to any established school serves no real purpose imho, as it doesn't come close in terms of iron quality, patina, execution, design characteristics and even function as Pete noted.

We shouldn't be wasting time on stuff as obvious as this, but the idea of re-looking at items like this in a few months by novices makes the exercise worthwhile I think.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Here are two examples of Chadogu, a Chawan (tea bowl) and a Chaire (tea caddy). Both are, I believe National Treasures:

 

 

[Curran]

If I were you I would most definitely keep it and take it out every six months or so and compare it to your then state of learning so you will be able to see fine points for yourself.

:lol:

 

Agree.

 

Christian- there is much cross-over and overlap between the Higo schools and some from outside the Higo schools.

Shimizu (aka. Jingo) <-> Nishigaki <-> Hayashi / Kamiyoshi

 

Often current master of one school would teach the future master of another school.

An example of the overlap would be Nidai Kanshiro (Nishigaki).

He studied with the Goto Family. He was also influenced by the meticulous nature of Hayashi works. There are examples of his work both in Goto style and Hayashi style.

 

Also, an example of design migration:

The Yoshinogawa design (cherry blossoms on active water or waves) started in Hayashi school <?>, but became most popular as rendered by Nidai Kanshiro and his younger brother Kampei, then the design also shows up in the Yagyu school (for example, see Sasano silver book- I forget the #).

[Pete Klein]

Probably #183. The blossom is so subdued it's hardly noticeable. Brilliant work.

 

[Curran]

That would be a nice one to own for a few years.

 

For comparison, here are examples of the Nishigaki design. I don't have the Hayashi book, so cannot show the original.

[Pete Klein]

I believe this is the one:

 

[Curran]

Mm. Nice example of Tohachi.

Thank you for sharing that photo. Going to save me down a copy, and I should buy the Hayashi book sooner or later.

 

I think I read that the design was started by Matashichi, but I cannot find the reference.

Ito-san says in the Nishigaki section on Kampei that this design probably started in the Hayashi school.

 

 

Anyway, lots of cross pollination among the original Higo artisans.

~And then there is the derivative Edo-Higo flashy knock-offs: heavy on design elements and light on quality.

 

The Jingo wannabe tsuba that started this thread probably is a late Edo period knockoff for export or merchant grade ware.

Good future reference point for comparison to a very nice Shimizu (aka Jingo). Photos rarely do the Shimizu proper justice. More so than with other schools,

study of a good Shimizu en Vivo provides that Smack-Forehead-Now_I_Understand moments.

[Pete Klein]

Hi -- yes, there is no substitute for in hand observation, especially for Shimizu as you mentioned. Anywhere there is a factor of depth you really need to see it in hand or at least have a 3-D viewer to assist. There is also the patina which can be difficult to discern in even the finest photographs.

 

I looked for the tsuba startig with Matasichi Kanshiro shodai and also through the Higo Kinko Taikan and could not find it except for the one I posted. This is not to say it doesn't exist of course. There is a similar themed tsuba Sasano silver, #272, attributed to Matasichi but the execution is different.

[Baka Gaijin]

Good afternoon all,

 

Regarding the straight tines on the Shimizu tsuba Chasen design;

 

Jean (Rokujuro) wrote:

 

The design you have in mind applies for new CHASEN. Old and used ones stretch their tines a little out and can appear to be almost straight.

 

Thank you for the information Jean, I've also found a modern design of a deliberately straight tine Chasen called Shichiku Rikyu Takayama, used for the thinner type of tea known as Usucha.

 

http://www.yuuki-cha.com/matcha-accesso ... ama-chasen

 

Cheers

[kissakai]

Old Tsuba help

 

Hi

I've found quite a lot of info that has helped me with some of my tsuba

One of mine is an enigma as I've found nothing like it. Maybe just something of low interest but I'd love to find out something about it. Size 60 x 54 x4mm

 

Synopsis

A very low end tsuba made recently (made for western tourists?) more likely a modern fake.

I would say low end for export piece like circa the Meiji Period. Inlays very poorly done.

Tsuba is NOT bad and Not an "tourist production"

How on earth can you attribute this doodle to Nishigaki? That's embarrassing.

This one screams Chinese fake or Japanese amateur "doodler" to me.

An especially close picture to the your one is here. I think we are getting closer

Some of you are clearly going blind. There is not a single feature of this tsuba that is even remotely well done. I would concede that this was by a total amateur

My first response was "wow, a Chinese copy or some such" and my gut feeling is still the same. What Christian has quoted so far looks quite reasonable

I would not really "hunt" for this spoken Tsuba as, it’s obviously sub in many aspects...

Now that I did my homework, I can say that this certainly is not a tourist item. No tourist could have ever chosen that out of the widely available hamamono, for sure.

Please.... It's incredible to me we are even discussing about this paperweight.

If you look at them (pasted images) you can see a "similarity" in the fact that the iron is beaten and has a design overlaid in copper or brass (like yours) For me the pic tsubas appear quite crude and unremarkable, but as it is part of a learned discussion of Higo artists by Japanese scholars it must be of artistic/historical significance in Japan.

I say it also is not to my taste, but I do think now it is possibly above a modern Chinese fake. It appears to be chiselled in high relief and has soft metal overlays which do not usually appear on Chinese junk copies

My first look was in reading TB 17-Page 22/mentioned there is one scholar who once studied under Nishigaki Kanshiro...which finally lead us to Higo.

Grev asked the members to help him "find out something about it". Since then it has been classified as modern Japanese, a fake, reproduction, Meiji, tourist production, hamamono etc and now we have also had a valuation.

Your tsuba appears to be cast. The two open areas in the right side of the seppa dai have no rational use. It is also interesting to note that there is no evidence of seppa zuri, wear marks caused by the seppa against the seppadai. The patina is grayish and blotchy and the overall colour of the metal is gray. This is not in line with forged tsuba and their patinas. The carving is shallow and rounded which I believe equates to not being carved at all but cast and finished. the gold iroe is thin and runs over onto the mimi in one area, although the use of two different colours of gold at least was thoughtful.

Keep items such as this, and keep at this hobby. Read online, get together with collectors, attend shows. Every few months, take out your old item, and see how you view it. That's great advice One thing that struck me about this tsuba is the lines. All the curves are hesitant and jagged. Nothing flowing. Note the lines within the flowers. This isn't any "wabi" or "sabi" or artistic freedom. It is hesitation and lack of skill. Cut by an amateurs who doesn't know how to use the chisel yet.

The cutting around the subjects to give them some form of depth is just badly done. As Pete noted.

 

My conclusion

Poor quality (amateur/not decided) and made of poor iron. The only image from Ito Mitsuru san's book on Hikozo and Shimizu that had some common points but I concede this image was of much better quality. They observations that helped me were the grey colour (not good), no seppa marks and a good learning exercise. If it was decided not to pursue this discussion there wouldn’t have been over 50 posts! So apart from obvious fakes/repro’s all tsuba are worth a second look. I still like this tsuba, my first of a collection of just over 30 tsuba. I’m sure my next request for help with another tsuba (better quality) will not spark as much discussion

 

Many thanks to all contributors

Grev UK

[Brian]

Grev,

Afraid that your attempt at a summary and hence a conclusion is fatally flawed. You have to listen to those who spend their time collecting and studying tsuba for many years. When they agree with those who spend their time making tsuba...then you have your answer.

There are many other tsuba experts reading this who prefer not to comment for various reasons. Flawed conclusions like yours being one of them I suspect.

The comparisson with the bad published pics was already shown to be not even close. Separate the opinions from the info presented with explanations.

If we ignore those with experience, we risk encouraging them not to share their knowledge. That is certainly not to discourage those with lesser experience from sharing their opinions. They, like myself, are always looking to learn and will always be willing to change their opinions once facts are presented. The key is to listen to who is presenting the info, and what is being said.

 

Brian

[Geraint]

Hi Grev.

 

Late to the party and you may already have had enough but can I ask, has anyone asked about the other side of the tsuba? A picture might add something to the discussion.

 

Cheers

[kissakai]

Geraint

 

Opposite side

 

[george trotter]

Grev,

Afraid that your attempt at a summary and hence a conclusion is fatally flawed. You have to listen to those who spend their time collecting and studying tsuba for many years. When they agree with those who spend their time making tsuba...then you have your answer.

There are many other tsuba experts reading this who prefer not to comment for various reasons. Flawed conclusions like yours being one of them I suspect.

The comparisson with the bad published pics was already shown to be not even close. Separate the opinions from the info presented with explanations.

If we ignore those with experience, we risk encouraging them not to share their knowledge. That is certainly not to discourage those with lesser experience from sharing their opinions. They, like myself, are always looking to learn and will always be willing to change their opinions once facts are presented. The key is to listen to who is presenting the info, and what is being said.

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian, The discussion has certainly improved, but I for one still don't know what the conclusion is... can you please state it....?

 

Regards,

[christianmalterre]

Hah!

At least i do see that now we can proceed here-

Pete -Thank you for your´s excellent writing and additions,

Curran (Ditto)(just letting you know that i am very well aware about those cross-overs)

 

Pete-where i actually do not agree is to say it´s cast iron.

I rather see it as an formerly heavily "worn" one,which latter(those times)has ben "cleaned" by an amatheur...

 

Now comming back to the very beginning relating to the nice Torist Item again-as this was the main reason i did allow me so to write some thoughts i had in reading about it in first...

Attached is an "canditate"-in equally bad execution,quality and preservation-just that here,it not yet got "professionally restaured" like our´s topic-candidate.

Just headaking about "mine" here-seeing some parrallels in the t.c-i may guess,those both do not lay such far from each other-comming (eventually?) out from hands of an Tsubashi working under an schoolar named Yatsushiro Sandaime from Jingo who after Kümmel had several workers producing Tsuba mainly for the

Chugen and/or Komono level.

Not having possibility so to verify due parallel facts,i but tend to agree here with him.

Of course-both of those Tsuba are out of topic to do serious research and would ben even not looked at,if we do have an trip to an fair or an show(at least not by me here)-on the other hand,those do me some nice research work.

Either way...

 

Christian

[kissakai]

Brian

When I did a sumary you said I was jumping to the wrong conclusions and best wait until there was a more rounded opinion

Are we at a stage where some sort of suming up can be made?

 

Christian - thanks for the images which I found to very useful

 

 

Grev UK

[Ford Hallam]

Evening Gents

 

I'm a little bemused to see the lengthy discussion this poor orphan tsuba has engendered :D

 

For what it's worth here's my take on it.

 

This looks to me to be a perfectly honest bit of amateur/hobbyist work made in the last 50 years and most probably in Japan.

 

Stylistically it seems to borrow elements from a number of periods and schools, in effect it's a bit of a pastiche really.

 

The most obvious influence in the technique used is Bushu. Which is to say the maker liked the way Bushu work was carried out and tried to emulate it.

 

Mention has been made of similarities to various Higo makers work and while this may be true all it really tells us is that the maker was influenced by those styles also.

 

The workmanship is ultimately what reveals the work to be that of an amateur though. The carving is unsteady and while we do see a certain rustic quality in some Higo works it's never crude or unskilled, which this example undeniably is.

 

The chiselling around the 'flowers', to throw them into relief, is slapdash in the way the maker hasn't even attempted to even out the level changes and the overall feeling of the carving is awkward and angular which makes me feel there was a lack of real control of the chisel.

 

As for the nakago-ana and the surrounding sappa-dai area I think it reveals a lack of consideration of any functional requirements with respect to mounting. This is something many Japanese hobbyists seemed to get wrong in the past.

As for the steel patina, I wouldn't call it that at all. It looks to be a fairly thin commercial blue/browning type colouring/stain and has been well rubbed off on all the high points to reveal a completely characterless metal underneath.

 

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Ford Hallam]

and the chrysanthumn leaves.

[Brian]

When I did a sumary you said I was jumping to the wrong conclusions and best wait until there was a more rounded opinion

Are we at a stage where some sort of suming up can be made?

Now we are.

Welcome back from Japan Ford, and thanks for the expert analysis. I would call that definitive, case closed.

 

Brian