Old Tsuba help

[kissakai]

Hi

I've found quite a lot of info that has helped me with some of my tsuba

One of mine is an emigma as I've found nothing like it. Maybe just something of low interest but I'd love to find out something about it

Size 60 x 54 x4mm

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi, name please,

I think either very low end Japanese from not too long ago (made for western tourists?) or more likely a modern fake.

Grey

[Soshin]

Hi,

 

I would say low end for export piece like circa the Meiji Period. Just my opinion. The inlays look like they were very poorly done. Check out this nice one on eBay of all places http://www.ebay.com/itm/261043349609?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_4326wt_1270. It is a good examples at a fare price. The seller is good to deal with. I have purchased NBTHK papered tsuba from him before.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[kissakai]

Thanks for all your help

As this was my first use this forum I was unsure of any protocols

If it is a fake/modern reproduction then is is why I couldn't find anything like it

I've had it for about 15 years but can not remember where it came from but I did think it had a little age to it

 

Grev (the UK)

[christianmalterre]

sorry Gents,

i but can not be online regularely;such seeing here;and addittionally reading those "attributions done"-i just can tell-NO WAY!

Please Gents,do have an objective look!

This Tsuba is very certainly NOT bad-and Not an "tourist production" like so many others equally "attributed" to this degree due lack of competence.

You may better in studying the essential literature available to the school of(and near)to Nishigaki!

(just by the way-there´s an very excellent book just actually published in the Sales-section for an very bargain price,relating to this lineage and stylism!)

 

(Grev-feel free so to contact me,i´ll tell you the correct attribution)

 

Christian

[george trotter]

Hi Christian,

why do you ask Grev to contact you off-line for the correct information? Won't you share the information with us too? I am not a tsuba collector so I only have a limited knowledge in this field, so I am always interested in learning more.

Regards,

[Soshin]

Hi Christian, Grev, and George T.,

 

I don't see any Nishigaki Higo school (if that is what Christian is referring to) influences on Grev's tsuba. I could be wrong I often am and would always welcome more information about a school I don't know much about.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Lorenzo]

Poor Kanshiro is probably turning in his grave now.

 

How on earth can you attribute this doodle to Nishigaki? That's embarrassing.

[Jean]

I love you Tosogu guys :D I was thinking till now that disputes among members were reserved to Nihonto

 

Now such tsuba form/pattern has an Higo flavour (whatever it is: Juyo, junk, cast, Meiji - BTW, did I forget something?)

[Lorenzo]

Jean, you forgot chinese

[Jean]

Damned I knew I was forgetting something!!

[Brian]

I must know less than I think then..because this one screams Chinese fake or Japanese amateur "doodler" to me. :|

 

Brian

[george trotter]

I love you Tosogu guys :D I was thinking till now that disputes among members were reserved to Nihonto

 

 

Haha. You are right Jean, we nihonto guys do have a fight sometimes. If nothing is happening in swords we even have battles over koshirae...I remember a a horse tsuba (hamamono one said) and a kodzuka mei (only one of that name said one)....in this case, Christian says he has information on a school/style for this tsuba...it will be interesting to see if some information does come out...after all, that is what members belong to NMB for.

Regards,

[christianmalterre]

LOL!-especially from your´s side Lorenzo -i had expected more research done...

Spitting some more oil into the flames,i do allow me so to give you two hints:

First one-is to please read what i wrote here in mine former post.Did i write that this Tsuba is an Nishigaki work?-certainly not.

 

Second hint-those seriously interested may do read following articles written by Kashima Susuma:(partially published in some of the Higo-Kinko group literature equally)

Tosogu of the Edo Period(Sword Fittings of the late 16th-17th centuries)-Higo Kinko-Goldsmiths in Higo/published in TB 13,TB 16,TB 17

Just by hazzard-there´s equally depicted some Tsuba-which at least do come extremely close to this one avove mentioned in execution and structure...

 

such-this above work is certainly not one of the very finest-does but equally not need an rather "bad sounding" attribution to "Tourist Item"-Not?

 

Christian

[george trotter]

Hi Christian,

I see what you mean after I looked at those 3 Token Bijutsu articles. I am not qualified to comment further on this particular tsuba (OP) but here is a sample from the article in TB 17....interesting.

Regards,

[kissakai]

I didn't wish to cause a stir but those who are passionate will speak out and this is the only way to get an objective view and provided it didn't degenerate is a good thing

 

I do not have a load of reference books so this is way I posed my question to ask ask where I could look

There has only been one relpy with a image, so thanks for that

 

Can any other contributers give me any links/images that would help with my original request

 

Grev UK

[christianmalterre]

Dear Grev,

 

an especially close workmanship-picture to the your´s here,i certainly have in one of those plenty auction-catalogues...

but-as already mentioned to you;i had to surch this out-and this does need time...

 

George-this is quite correct-of course not him here/at least i hardly doupt he had let out such from his shop...

I but think-it´s getting closer ...(especcialy in regard of those mentioned sub-schools/individuals here...

Quite interesting Tsuba Grev!-Thank you for sharing it!

 

Christian

[Brian]

Maybe I'm wrong....very, very wrong.

But in my mind, some of you are clearly going blind. There is not a single feature of this tsuba that is even remotely well done. Neither the ground, nor the iron (if it is?) nor the carving, inlay, lines, subject matter.

At the very best, I would conceed that this was by a total amateur who was trying his hand at carving. I don't even see this as tourist work.

I am going to attempt to get hold of Ford to settle this....maybe it is me who needs glasses?

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Hi Brian,

I understand what you say. My first response was "wow, a Chinese copy or some such" and my gut feeling is still the same, but I am unlearned in this field...In this case a member has raised some reasonable links to the work/styles of known artists and credible research to support what he says, and you know me, I am against instant dismissal of an example of anything unless the possibilities suggested in learned research have been been presented and either upheld or rebutted in a learned way (sorry...bad character trait )...it doesn't mean I like/dislike the object discussed.

I just don't want to see a repeat of a bad example of "brow-beating" argument over a kodzuka mei where a "learned critic" stated there was only one man who used a mei...then flew into a rage when additional users of the mei were given and the source quoted. The "learned critic's" response was to attack the alternative poster, his understanding, his library, the Japanese scholar who wrote the book quoted from etc etc (remember TOU?)....

In this case, I have no opinion on the object (in my limited experience it seems to have little artistic merit), but I'd like to see what comes up in discussion. What Christian has quoted so far looks quite reasonable (that's why I posted the pics from his article), and anyone can disagree publicly or privately, but if they state a disagreement they should say why and give their reasons and sources.

Hope this makes sense,

[kissakai]

Hello George

 

In your reply you said you have posted the pictures from his article can you tell me where I can view these?

 

Thanks for your unbiased reply and I look forward to any more input

 

 

Grev UK

[Brian]

In his previous reply at the bottom of the previous page?

The pics don't have any bearing on this tsuba imho though....not the same workmanship by any means. Btw..have you checked your tsuba is magnetic?

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

Thank you George for clearifying facts!

(It may do not much sense so to argue,equally not in evaluating on very personal preferences-each of us here does have-or not have)

Brian,

I very certainly do agree with you concerning your´s personal preferences-in fact,me,too-i would not really "hunt" for this spoken Tsuba...as,it´s obviously sub in many aspects...

The striking point,but-i think(?)-shall be-and has ben-so to give an most probably fitting answer to an collector,not knowing at all where to put this piece ...

Grev,

I do feel sorry for you here-your´s personal inquiery did moove(again,like such ofthen in past)into an rather rudiment argumentation...

Such shall find no place further...

Much more interest should ben given to an "likewise possible attribution"-if finally this does suit of course,may be an other matter...

I personally do not see this Tsuba such bad at all-i do agree,it´s not THAT,and it´s very certainly in an rather very bad preservation-state,,,

I but equally have to confess-i do like it somehow...

I have seen MUCH worser ones(Tsuba)(which additionally were "told" rare and precious-Laugh!)

(as Geaorge already did write-please do keep objective and neutral-It´s not the your´s Tsuba)

 

Christian

[kissakai]

Hello Brian

 

I hadn't checked but have now and it is magnetic, it als has a 'ring' when tapped

I can understand your point when the grey colour was mentioned in a previous message so this check was a good idea

 

 

Grev UK

[Lorenzo]

Sorry Christian, you are right. I should have read and studied more. Now that I diid my homeworks, I can say that this certanly is not a tourist item. No tourist could have ever chosen that out of the widely available hamamono, for sure.

 

Please.... It's incredible to me we are even discussing about this paperweight.

I don't want to be rude with the person who opened the topic, but he shouldn't be fooled as well.

[Brian]

I'm posting this again here so that people don't have to go back to view it.

I mean c'mon guys...seriously?

 

Brian

[kissakai]

Brian/Christian

If you wish you can close this discussion. It has helped although an image or article showing something similar was ideally what I was looking for.

My view is that I am not ashamed of this tsuba, it has some detail looks used and feels nice. It was my first tsuba and my collection but as may be apparent I know so little so this message board is of vital interest to me and hope it use it in the future but feel I already used my ‘allowance’ with my first submission.

 

I thought I would add an enlargement of the back of the tsuba

 

 

Thanks again for every ones comments

 

 

Grev UK

[Brian]

Grev,

No closing of the thread until we have a final answer. And that will come when we hear from the tsuba guys such as Ford or Pete or Curran or ...etc etc.

No worries, there is nothing wrong with your posts or any limit to how much you can ask. We all are learning all the time, and subjects such as this one have to happen to show the differences in opinions and tastes. Either we are going to find out it is genuine and what era/school, or we are going to know more about the fakes out there. We await more info.

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Hi Grev,

did you find the pics of 2 tsuba I posted? If you look at them you can see a "similarity" in the fact that the iron is beaten and has a design overlaid in copper or brass (like yours)...as this is art of course the appreciation of it is in the eye of the beholder, and I hope I don't upset the collectors, but for me the pic tsubas appear quite crude and unremarkable, but as it is part of a learned discussion of Higo artists by Japanese scholars it must be of artistic/historical significance in Japan...(to each his own ).

If I may express a personal opinion of your tsuba, may I say it also is not to my taste, but I do think now it is possibly above a modern Chinese fake...I am unlearned here, but it appears to be chiselled in high relief and has soft metal overlays which do not usually appear on Chinese junk copies (the few I have noticed were usually somewhat austere/sterile castings without chiselling or overlay/inlay etc).

While I do not expect you will receive a "glowing approval" from the knowledgeable here, I think it will be worthwhile to hear their opinions.

Regards,

[kissakai]

Hello George

I have looked at your previous post but do not see any images, would you let me know where they are?

The only image apart from mine is from Christian

 

I did not expect any glowing remarks just advice, so the 'paperweight' comment I believe was a bit low and did nothing to answer my request

Far better to refer to a paperweight then back up the statement

 

 

Grev UK

[Soshin]

Hi Chistian M.,

 

I stand corrected the inlay technique used does look similar to the tsuba posted. But like I said in the beginning this is not my area of focus. I am not going to comment any more on this tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles