Fuchi Kashira appraisal?

[JeffT]

Hi all! I am fortunate to find myself the new owner of this set of tora fuchi/kashira.

 

Please forgive my ignorance, but I do not know the details of its making, and it is unsigned...

 

Your thoughts on the name/school/area of the person who carved them or any other information you can relay after looking at the enclosed images would be greatly appreciated :D

 

Edo-period f/k of tora in nanakoji takahori kinzogan shakudo

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JeffT]

So no one has any idea of where these come from? Interesting.

 

Feel free to PM me with thoughts as well.

 

Thanks for looking & thinking 'bout it.

 

~ Jeff

[Curran]

Jeff,

 

Isn't that they are bad as much of the stuff on ebay and elsewhere now. They just are not good either.

Claws carved with some Somen derivative notes, but the tigers themselves not very well done. Nanako isn't particularly clean, deep, or well done.

Shakudo is a half decent color. Rock and leave renderings are typical stylistically of several small late Edo school. Sort of a hodgepodge work to my eyes.

[Brian]

Most fittings are not like swords. In most cases, unless there is a very definitive trait, you won't get to a maker or very much further than a general era if they are unsigned. There are a few major schools, and the rest of the stuff is lumped into the "Edo period fittings" category.

Don't get too worked up trying to identify the school and/or maker of fuchi kashira unless they really stand out.

 

Brian

[JeffT]

Brian & Curran ~

 

Hey thanks for confirming my gut instinct.

 

I realized these aren't museum-quality fittings when I bought them, but obviously am curious as to their origin. As you may have noticed from my previous thread on a tora-themed tsuba:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13009

 

I am an experienced tiger person looking to outfit a new blade (new to me, anyway). Let me clarify, experienced in tigers rather than sword fittings. I actually worked hands-on with tigers and other large felines for a period of 5 years here in Pittsboro, NC. Anyway, the point being to acquire furniture which I can afford, the aesthetics of which appeal to me and have a common theme, and also have some measure of authenticity rather than being modern production pieces.

 

Without a signature, it is indeed difficult to know much more than shown, but thought I'd give it a shot since you all collectively have amassed such a great deal of experience and knowledge in the area.

 

No worries, not knowing their maker isn't going to keep me up at night, else I would have insisted on a signed pair. Just knowing they are hand-carved and a couple centuries old is more than enough to give them meaning for this specific project.

 

My gratitude for your thoughts on the subject :D

 

Best wishes,

~ Jeff

[Curran]

Some big cat experience from my youth too. Not hands on as much as ~crazy (& wealthy guy) who created a small game preserve in Georgia~ and tried to share a bit with local youth. He had something to do with the invention or sale of tranquilizer guns in the USA. He gained local fame after getting into an argument with someone in the parking lot of a Home Depot. Shot the jerk in the leg with a tranquilizer gun he had in his truck. Local cops knew him well and regretted having to arrest him, as he was clearly in the right and at least hadn't used a real gun.

Long distant memory now. Big cats in Georgia were quite the oddity. Infinitely more interesting than say the monkey preserve in Atlanta that Emory University and the CDC maintains for research purposes. Big cats are so different from other creatures.

 

Personal memory aside:

The problem with tigers is that the Japanese seem to place a small premium on fittings with them, with some themes and artists (tiger in rain looking up> commands a bigger multiple). So just take this with a grain of salt and be not surprised. Though they come up in Buddhist themes now and then, you won't see as many tiger themed tsuba as you would expect. You see a decent one you like, be willing to pay up for it a bit and grab it.

[JeffT]

Curran ~

 

Yeah, the tranquilizer gun we used to use was very much a blowgun/dart set up, rather like the aborigines you might see running around in the Amazon jungle. The main thing I remember is the big cats tended to be reallllly p!$$ed off most times when they woke up from anesthesia, and lots of fights occurred with whomever was in the enclosure with them at these times.

 

Anyway, to my knowledge tigers are not now, nor have they ever been native to the island of Japan. So thanks for your perspective on the premium placed on tiger-themed furniture, as I was not aware of this & would not have known otherwise.

 

This tigerphile phenomenon may very well explain why I paid more than I would have liked for the tsuba and f/k fittings :lol:

 

Thanks again for your take,

~ Jeff

[nagamaki - Franco]

This may have been a better set originally than how they appear now. It looks like this f/k had been stripped of its original patina, and then somehow very poorly repatinated or perhaps even recolored black. Condition prevents any hope of kantei.

[Surfson]

Are you sure that they aren't cast? The nanako don't really like cut to me.

[Jimmy R]

Cast, hot oil patina.

J.M.O.

Jim

[JeffT]

My first impression from the lack of responses was that indeed many of you all thought the pieces to be a reproduction. However, since no one actually said anything, I wasn't certain.

 

It would have been better for someone to have said something when the request was originally posted instead of remaining silent until now.

 

Unfortunately now the sellers' 7-day return window has closed.

 

Being wrong about the item and being told so publicly, I can handle. It's part of the learning curve. I never claimed to be an expert and this is why I came here for some other, more experienced opinions.

 

Being unable to return the item and the $, not so much.

[Surfson]

Sorry 'bout that Jeff. I just saw the posting. I will say that often people post items that they cherish even though they have "issues" and it is hard for NMB members to disparage them......

[Surfson]

Jeff, just went back and see that you never explicitly stated that they were in a return period. Sounded like you owned them already. Next time if you are clear about it, we might not be so considerate! Good luck with your education in nihonto.

[Soshin]

Hi Jeff T.,

 

Sorry for the late reply. I have a Fudo Myo tsuba that some of the senior members hate but I keep it in my collection because I like the theme of the tsuba. I will not submit it to shinsa but I will keep it in my collection for rest of my life. If you like the fuchi gashira set because of the tiger design please keep it and enjoy it for what it is. Keep a look out save your money and really nice set of tiger menuki or even a tsuba might come up for sale on NMB or one of the dealer websites and you can purchase it.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[nagamaki - Franco]

Also came late to this thread.

Cast, I can see why someone might think that, but, no, I don't think so, just an abused set.

Why not ask before purchasing?

The first advice after buying books, attending sword shows and study group meetings to learn I received as a newbie was, "don't buy junk, save your money until you can afford a good piece." Which made me realize that I had better learn what these people were talking about.

[Jimmy R]

They are cast. I will tell you why. The nanakoji around the edges of the design are not defined. This would only happen from the uneven contact that would happen in a mold, not from wear or age. Also the black oily finish is the hallmark of a false or applied patina. I could go on but I will stop here.

Jim

(ps) when you say "proud owner" that means you must like them and that is all that should matter.

[Lorenzo]

Cast? Please...

 

 

 

Second picture, fuchi seen from the bottom. Clearly visible silver solder all around the tenjo-gane. Evident copper reinforcement on the mune.

 

Third picture. Fuchi; the soldered joint is all around and vertical on the mune.

 

The kashira quality match the fuchi, so I assume they was made by the same person (hence the kashira isn't cast as well).

 

Now, let's discuss the quality (or lack of). The whole fact the soldered joint is so clearly visible on the top is by itself a sign of lower quality; the carvings are aligned to that.

The colour is strange, it could be caused by the pictures or the set is way too waxed (or lacquered, or painted, or worse).

 

When you receive the set please make some new pictures under natural (sun) light.

[Jimmy R]

In descriptions by the jss they talk about the nanakoji and how it is always indicative of how a piece was made. Specifically when definition of nanakoji around the Raised design is not clear. We can all see how there is a soldered Tenjo gane added. If it is not cast, I have never seen such a poorly made set. The time alone to create nanakoji would require much more attention to detail. It is an extremely painstaking process. Have you ever done nanakoji on your work Lorenzo? I would love to see more of your kodogu.

Jim

[Lorenzo]

I do have seen some nanako poorly done, indeed; this is not the worst. This particular case isn't easy to judge with those pictures, but I can't think of any reason to cast a fuchi, cut it and then solder it.

 

As you ask about my work, I never did nanako on a kodogu. I did few test plates however; both in copper and in mild steel. If I would have to do that on a tsuba it would be only for personal choice and not behind customers request; my head hurts in just thinking how much time it would require to train to do the job in an acceptable way... :?

If you are interested in my work drop me a PM, don't want to change the subject of the discussion

[Brian]

Well said Lorenzo, these are not cast, and are genuine. Not top class by any means, but we have seen far worse.

Wipe off the oil, take pics in better light, and I bet they look better than these pics make them seem.

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

If you look closely at both the fuchi and kashira you can see, especially along the edges of the tigers, clear concentric circles around a few of the individual nanako indicating a punch was used (and tapped a bit too hard on occassion leaving a circle) to create the dimple in the center. There is no indication of casting.

[JeffT]

Ok, so I'm going to come down off the ledge now

 

Thank you Brian & Lorenzo & Franco and others for your considered experience in these matters. It is indeed helpful.

 

Just to clarify where I am coming from:

 

I a newcomer to koshirae, so when I describe myself as ignorant this is meant to preface the things I say here with the realization if/when I say things that sound uneducated to you all in this field, or if I violate any of the board's terms of etiquette, please keep in mind these things are completely unintentional on my part. So I ask for your understanding and patience in advance.

 

However, please do not mistake my admitted ignorance for stupidity, I am here because I wish to learn and strive to remain teachable, but I can be taught

 

My undergrad is in Chemistry and I have 20+ years of experience in the martial arts (most of it non-Japanese arts), so I do have some requisite understanding of what we are talking about with metals and swords. My grad degree is in medical genetics, so I can talk with you all day about say, the genetics of the kids with autism I work with, rather fluently. Yet in the area of nihonto, my eagerness certainly far outweighs my knowledge base. But enough about me. This is not why we are here discussing this set of f/k.

 

I bought this f/k set a week ago primarily because I like the theme. I can live with its aesthetic qualities, though it obviously isn't the best made set known to mankind.

 

My main concern is whether it is authentic and not a reproduction. While I won't disclose anything about specific about the seller as a point of general etiquette, I will say they are located in Japan. As long as the pieces are represented as the seller describes them, namely hand-carved shakudo made between 1800-50, I am happy.

 

What I don't want is to be lied to and have the pieces be cast the week before I bought them and treated with some chemicals and such to make them look antique.

 

Brian, I would be happy to remove the oil and take more pictures of the items in an effort to help clarify their construction. What process should I use to remove this oil/patina?

 

I certainly do not want to damage them in the process, but would be interested in learning how to apply a proper patina to them myself if this will upgrade their appearance.

 

Thank you all again for your consideration, and remember, I can be pretty thick-skinned as long as people are honest in what they say. As in martial arts, you gotta get knocked down (or out) a few times before you can learn how to actually fight, & I understand that being called out for my errors here is part of this process of growing

 

~ Jeff.

[Lorenzo]

My main concern is whether it is authentic and not a reproduction. While I won't disclose anything about specific about the seller as a point of general etiquette, I will say they are located in Japan. As long as the pieces are represented as the seller describes them, namely hand-carved shakudo made between 1800-50, I am happy.

I don't want is to be lied to and have the pieces be cast the week before I bought them and treated with some chemicals and such to make them look antique.

 

You can relax; they are authentic and probably the age is correct too.

If they are painted it's to make them look prettier, not older.

Start washing them with dish soap. It's good for degreasing. Then make some honest picture and upload it here.

Hear you then