Yasurime puzzle

[Ron STL]

Hi all -

Playing kantei with a loaned (unidentified/a.k.a. "no answer") sword this weekend, and it's a puzzler. The sword at first study appears early Bizen work considering it has strong, strong gunome utsuri throughout and an early looking fairly narrow hamon of midare-kochoji mixture. Its nioi-guchi is rather thick and therefore it does not stand out brightly. What really puzzles me is that the mumei nakago while cut kiri, does show finely made and distinct yasurime of a unique style. The shinogi-ji is made higaki (checkered) while the ji is made suji-chigai (slanting left). Seeing higaki, I studied Naminohira but that seemed all wrong to me. Bizen (maybe as late as early Muromachi?) still seems correct, but this combo-yasurime for Bizen??? Very strange and challenging sword to kantei! I try to study the hamon and jigane first, but I can't neglect the nakago in this case, which seems to contradict my thinking. Does anyone recall some reference to this use of higaki/suji-chigai?

 

There is also some unusual things about the utsuri which appears strongly even in the shingo-ji, but I'll mention that later if warrented.

 

Ron H.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Why not add a few photos, Ron, so the rest of us can see what the blade looks like?

 

Ken

[Ron STL]

Will try. The nakago is easy but trying to show the rest of the sword (that strong utsuri) is something else. Today was my first day to sit and study the sword, loaned to my by a friend.

 

Ron H.

[chrstphr]

Shape first, activity second, mei (if any) third. Too many people get caught up in the hamon or activity first and miss the clues in the entire shape for time period and age.

 

What does the shape of the entire blade tell you.

 

I say this because you only spoke of all the activity and said nothing of the shape, sori, length, etc. All of that is first and foremost when trying to ascertain the age or time period of a sword. The activity you describe can encompass hundreds of years. Utsuri and nioi are not delegated to one era. And many techniques were copied again and again in later time periods.

 

What is the length? sori? has it been shortened? What is the shape of the Kissaki,

 

Once you have the shape, it will narrow a time period. Then you look to the type of activity. For all you have said, this could be an edo blade, or muromachi.

 

A photo of the whole blade will be a big start.

 

my humble two cents

 

Chris

[Ron STL]

Yes, I do go through the steps for kantei but when seeing the yasurime I thought that might unscramble some of my confusion about this blade. I've taken some photos and will post them here if all goes well.

 

The blade is mumei but I question that it is O-suriage, again because of what appears to be the original yasurime covering most of the nakago. Blade measures 74.3 cm with 19.6 cm nakago (kiri end). Width/thickness is 3.3 cm/0.75 cm x 2.2cm/0.50 cm. Sori is koshizori measuring 2.5 cm at deepest point. There is sori all the way through the end of the sword (as opposed to flattening out). Kissaki is what I would call extended chu-gissaki with fukuru. Jigane is notari-masame (a bit course) in the shingi-ji and a somewhat running itame with some O-mokume in the ji. The blade does have some problems from polishing making the jigane appear a bit rough (open) on one side; the other is more intact. The hamon shows up fairly well on the photos and is representative throughout the blade. Most evident is the very strong gunome utsuri.

 

My initial thinking was absolutely early Bizen work, possible mid-Kamakura but seeing the extended kissaki and the sori not flattening out, now I am more into thinking early Muromachi Bizen. What contridicts this thinking? Well, those odd-ball yasurime and that very vivid utsuri which I would be surprised to find on an early Muromachi sword. I'll go ahead and post these comments and post the photos next since they may need to be adjusted by size to be submitted. (I need to write down those requirements...ah, old age memory!)

 

By the way, this sword is mounted ensuite with high quality shakudo fittings, all with heavy gold double mons, so it was certainly somebody's treasure, even with its wear problems.

 

Ron H.

[Ron STL]

Okay...the pictures, hopefully! Ron H.

[runagmc]

My first thought, judging by the way the nakago is finished, would be Osuriage, but I'm not sure... A picture of the whole blade like picture 3, but without the habaki, might help to give a better view of the true shape and also a look at the start of the hamon.

 

Also, the utsuri is unusual... it looks like it follows the hamon almost like hadori...

[chrstphr]

Based on the shape in the photo and the length, i would say 1700s-1800s. I dont think the sori is right for kamakura or Koto.

 

Take a look at this Kamakura blade and see the sori.

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12731

 

I do not think the blade has been shortened, if it has the sori is way too deep, and the length is still long at 93.9 cm. I think Kamakura or koto , it would be a lot shorter. The photos get dark near the Kissaki, so its hard to truly see the whole shape to see the taper the blade has as it gets to the kissaki.

Still a nice blade.

 

 

my humble opinion.

 

 

Chris

[Ron STL]

This is definitely koto, believe me. These were quick photos at best but I'll try a "daylight" shot of the overall blade tomorrow. The utsuri is real, not hadori application. Honestly, the utsuri reminded me a great deal of my Hatakida Moriie tachi (now on exhibit in Louisville, KY), it is that strong (for those of you who have handled the Moriie at Tampa/Chicago in the past. Everything else considered, I still wonder about those yasurime being made so well and a combo of higaki & suji-chigai. I was reading in Token bijutsu today a talk by Dr. Homma saying that to make finely made higaki yasurime was very difficult and if made well, shows the maker's skill.

 

As I said earlier, there is no "answer" to this kantei...just two of us St. Louis "locals" trying out our skills. Too bad Tanobe san or Miyano san is not resting in my spare room!!!

 

Ron H.

[runagmc]

Take a look at this Kamakura blade and see the sori.

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12731

Chris, the sword in that post is Osuriage... but anyway, sori of all different amounts can be found in all periods... there are many Kamakura tachi with little sori and many with strong sori...

I do not think the blade has been shortened, if it has the sori is way too deep, and the length is still long at 93.9 cm. I think Kamakura or koto , it would be a lot shorter.

Although I understand your point, sometimes a strong sori can remain even after shortening...Also, he says the nagasa is 74.3 cm which would mean suriage is possible. Here's examples to show strong sori on greatly shortened tachi,

 

BTW, I wasn't trying to say the utsuri was fake, just that it reminded me of the way hadori pattern follows the hamon and that I have never seen utsuri like that before.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I've never seen an utsuri going trough the nioiguchi, i've big doubt this one is real. How are yasurime on the other side ?

 

 

ps a good picture of the start of the hamon could be useful.

[chrstphr]

Chris, the sword in that post is Osuriage... but anyway, sori of all different amounts can be found in all periods... there are many Kamakura tachi with little sori and many with strong sori...

Although I understand your point, sometimes a strong sori can remain even after shortening...Also, he says the nagasa is 74.3 cm which would mean suriage is possible.

 

 

while i agree with all your points, and i also concede i am an armchair nihonto idiot. But i would say that the two examples you gave have the deepest curve nearer the nakago, which is consistant with early tachi, while the OP's sword photo appears to have the deepest curve more in the center of the blade and is at a length that it may be suriage. If it was shortened, the that would put the curve even more up the blade towards the kissaki. Which is why i gave a later date. But i am only guessing.

 

 

Chris

[Jorgensen]

Regarding to age I would say very late 1500 or beginning 1600, when looking at shape of the blade. I also have my doubts its koto. But again, there are many other factors like if it is shortened amongst others...

[Brian]

I know that we often don't know the backgrounds of some of the people who post here, and it is easy to treat people we don't know, as novices. So thought it useful to just mention that for those who don't know him...Ron is an advanced collector who has many, many years of study behind him and is oneof the more serious collectors.

I only mention this to indicate that if Ron says it is a Koto, and has some of the other traits mentioned...then you can be fairly safe with going that route in your deductions.

In fact, I should find a way to add a Nihonto biog in our profiles, as this is something that can avoid a whole lot of confusion and misunderstanding.

Ron..that is a stunning hamon. I have no idea how to kantei it, but it looks like a very good blade.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Curiously, it seems that there are Togari(s) + tobiyaki ....

[David Flynn]

Another point, This sword is Tori Zori not Koshi Zori.

[Ron STL]

Good to see that I'm not the only one bouncing around with kantei options. About its sori, it is koshizori and the deepest point (measured) is at 33 cm from munemachi and 41.5 cm back from the kassaki tip. As I pointed out yesterday, the sori does continue through the kissaki and does not become minimal (flattening out) as one would expect on very early tachi. Yasurime are the same on both sides of the nakago. Nakago-mune is flat and ha is rounded. As for the hamon at the ha-machi, on one side the hamon drifts off the blade about 9 cm above the ha-machi with only remnants continuing. The other side is very healthy and the hamon clearly continue to the ha-machi and then end. I'd get a picture of this without the habaki but the habaki only slides back a little and not being my sword, I don't want to force it off.

 

Attached is an overall picture of the blade taken outside in sunlight. It at least shows the overall shape of the blade. At this point I feel this sword is not O-suriage, possibly very early Muromachi, it still looks Bizen to me...but those odd yasurime continue to bug me. Such is life, eh?

 

Ron H.

[paulb]

for what it is worth I dont think it is O-suriage either. the shape just doesnt look right for it and if it were the sori would have to be massive. I am not sure what I am basing it on other than impression but I would tend to look towards Muromachi period and Bizen-ish. Problem is as has often been said before when you get in to this period things start to blur together.

[Ron STL]

Kantei is a great learning tool, something we here in St. Louis seldom get to to with good kantei swords (in polish, papered, etc.). A few months ago and friend and I were invited to visit an old friend who opened his collection to us...good stuff, shall I say, all in polish and "identified." We decided to first kantei each sword and only afterwards to remove tsuka or learn of their attributions, if mumei. It was a humbling experience, believe me. But we left for home feeling satisfied with the experience knowing that we learned something useful. Oh how I envy those of you who are in a location that provides kantei sessions with fresh material on a regular basis!

 

Ron H.

[paulb]

Hi Ron,

I appreciate it is only a pale substitute but if like many of us you only have limited opportunity to kantei "live" blades have you considered trying the paper ones in the monthly NBTHK magazine?

It took my mentor a long time to convince me to take part but it is probably the best thing I ever did. It forces the discipline of study and looking at detail. I appreciate it is only half the job because many of the features are described for you but in the absence of anything better it is a great learning tool.

If you havent already give it a go it will help a lot.

Best Regards

Paul

[runagmc]

To me, the thought of Muromachi seems unlikely (but not impossible), if we can safely assume that the sword is ubu. By that period the majority of nakago are done with more typical nakagojiri and yasurime, not to mention mei. There's always the chance this is an exception, but when I look through pictures of Muromachi Bizen, this doesn't really seem to fit easily to me... although, the suguta would fit. I might think earlier, due to the nakago and the yakiotoshi.

[Ron STL]

Years ago with the English Token Bijutsu was being published I did the kantei regularly and surprisingly, did rather well. Somewhere along the way I neglected to follow the Japanese Token Bujutsu kantei feature. This is something I should get back into doing on a regular basis. I've suggested this practice to our small local study group but "serious study" is limited to ~ three of us. I planned on using the old English versions as a start but life is busy and well, the days fly past! (Even in retirement)

 

Somebody mentioned tobiyaki on this sword; actually, it is more like spots of nioi-kuzuri, similar but different than tobiyaki. As was said, it is quite possible the blade has some added features that are not common to the swords age and maker. I wish it were my sword; I'd send it for Japanese shinsa for opinion. I wish you could see the mountings but maybe later when I can get my hands on them.

 

Ron H.

[chrstphr]

sometimes yakiotoshi can be found on rehardened blades. With this sori, i wonder if the blade was ever retempered.

 

 

 

Chris

[cabowen]

sometimes yakiotoshi can be found on rehardened blades. With this sori, i wonder if the blade was ever retempered.

 

 

 

Chris

 

With the sori, yaki-otoshi, odd yasuri-me, perhaps that is a possibility that should be carefully explored.....

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

sometimes yakiotoshi can be found on rehardened blades. With this sori, i wonder if the blade was ever retempered.

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

With a yakiotoshi on one side only ? Astonishing. This blade seems well tired, kissaki seems to have been broken and (not very well) repaired.

[Peter Bleed]

Ron,

You have set off a wonderful thread which I have followed with naive interest. I am glad the the possibility of retemper has surfaced. My first reaction was a Bizen koto that passed a repair phase during which a mei was removed.

It's swords like this that make me glad to be collector of Shinto.

Peter

[Ron STL]

Thanks Peter, you may have a point here with sticking with shin-to. As for retemper, I did look into this possibility as late as this morning but honestly, I do not see any indications of retempering. The first thing that made me even go that route was seeing how the hamon drifts off on one side (the other side being totally intact with clear nioi-guchi). I still do not see why this happened on one side and not the other, but I see no mizukage or funky nie going on and the nakago does not show any dryness to it. The shape does not bother me at all and feels as it should, in the hand. A friend off-list viewed the posts and felt it looked Soden-Bizen. My first inclination was naw...not enough Soshu nie activity showing but, looking again at the hamon, there is some lines of nie activity within the hamon if you look for it. It sure is not "in your face" Soden-Bizen in my opinion, but it could just be which would put us into early Muromachi over end of Nambokucho. The extended kissaki still pushes me into that time frame. If I can borrow the sword again sometime I'll carry it to a KTK meeting and get some in-hand opinions of it. As for those puzzling yasurimi, I'm going to disregard them for now; Lord only knows why they are as they are. Fun study though!!!

 

Ron H.

[Ron STL]

Sorry to be beating this topic to death, but I just captured a couple shots of the bottom of the sword, both sides. Poor quality pictures but they might be good enough for sharing. You see how the hamon runs off on the one side whereas on the other, it stays intact to just past the ha-machi. Okay, back to you BBQs...Ron H.

[ROKUJURO]

......You see how the hamon runs off on the one side whereas on the other, it stays intact......

Might this fact just have been the reason that the smith did not want his MEI on the blade?

[Ron STL]

Jean, I really don't this that is the case (why this sword is unsigned) since this lose of hamon would appear to have happened later in the sword's life. Had the clay fallen off the sword at quenching I think this area would look different than it does.

 

Let me correct something...yesterday I remarked that an off-line friend suggested Soden-Bizen. That was incorrect; he came up with Naoe Shizu. Hmmm...checking out Yamanaka (V2-N9-p13) I must admit, lots of things do connect. Everything except that strong utsuri.

 

Ron H.