A TSUBA - School unknown to me

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

Here is a nice tsuba which is fitted on a koshirae of mine.

 

Does anyone of you experts know the origin?

 

[attachment=5]a.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=4]b.JPG[/attachment]

 

[attachment=3]c.JPG[/attachment]

 

[attachment=2]d.JPG[/attachment]

 

[attachment=1]e.JPG[/attachment]

 

[attachment=0]f.JPG[/attachment]

 

Adding 2 more pics in my own reply to this.

 

Thank you

 

/Martin

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

Two more:

 

[attachment=1]g.JPG[/attachment]

 

[attachment=0]h.JPG[/attachment]

 

Thank you for looking!

 

/Martin

[Ford Hallam]

The fact that the front and back are identical indicates that the veneers of metal that have been applied to front and back (of the copper core) were produced from the same die. In essence, mass produced.

 

In my opinion this relegates this sort of work to 'mass produced' simulation/copy.

 

The actual artefact itself (again, imo) is merely a cheap and quick representation of a fairly generic type of tsuba.

 

regards,

 

 

fh

[NihontoEurope]

Ford,

 

Thanks for the input.

 

However, I am convinced (but not 100% sure), that I have Tokubetsu appraisal on this item.

 

I will look for it. Perhaps there is some information on the appraisal should it exist.

 

/Martin

[Geraint]

Martin.

 

You have of course looked at the article on sanmai tsuba on Richard Stein's site? Judging by the mimi of yours I would say it fits this category, perhaps originally having a fukurin.

 

Cheers

[NihontoEurope]

Hello again,

 

Yes, I found the appraisal, but I am totally clueless what it says. I bought the sword and it was delivered and packaged in the koshirae.

Perhaps the appraisal is for koshirae only, but I do like the Tsuba better.

 

Perhaps the Kanji is known...

 

[attachment=0]KINMICHI (2).jpg[/attachment]

 

Thank you so far!

 

/Martin

[NihontoEurope]

Geraint,

 

What is Fukurin?

 

/Martin

[Geraint]

Can you see if the tsuba in the photgraph on the paper is the same as the one on the sword now? Probably is in which case I guess that the paper refers to the whole koshirae as being of merit whereas, as Ford says, the tsuba may have little merit on it's own. However the article I refereed to does say that sanmai tsuba have papered so perhaps this is a case of the paper confirming the age of a piece but not making the same sort of aesthetic judgement that Ford is making.

 

More pictures of the koshirae please!

[Geraint]

Sorry Martin, our posts are crossing. A fukurin is a separate metal rim cover in this context. It would overlap the edges of the three plates, concealing the fact that it was constructed from a number of pieces and also securing the pieces for use.

[NihontoEurope]

Geraint,

 

I will take some pictures of the fittings.

 

Give me a few minutes.

 

/Martin

[Rich S]

Martin -

 

You might be interested in my webpage on sanmai tsuba at:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/tsuba/sanmai.htm

 

Note that some of this type have received papers from various

Japanese shinsa.

 

Rich S

[NihontoEurope]

Sorry for being late ( Computer gave me a hard time)

 

Interesting information, since it is fitted on a tachi style koshirae....

 

Thanks Rich!

 

More pics:

[attachment=0]IMG_6150.JPG[/attachment]

 

I will check the actual appraisal if the tsuba on it would be this one.

 

/Martin

[NihontoEurope]

Can you see if the tsuba in the photgraph on the paper is the same as the one on the sword now?

 

Geraint,

 

It is impossible to say 100%, based on the photo itself, that it is the same. I can only verify the Mimi and say it looks the same. I think we have to assume it is the same kit now as when appraised.

 

Now when I looked at the original paperwork, it is clear that it is not Tokubetsu. The blade has Tokubetsu and Fitting the lower.

 

/Martin

[Rich S]

Robert Haynes had several of this type in his various catalogs. Many attributed to quite early periods; late Muromachi to Momoyama if I recall (don't have the catalogs handy to check). I got my first one like this from Bob at the '84 Chicago Token Kai. He mentioned they were very under priced and under appreciated as many thought them to be shiremono (which some undoubtedly are).

 

Rich S

[Henry Wilson]

Ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔｉｎｇ．

 

Ｉs there anyway to tell the difference between the shiiremono and the "real" ones?

 

Thanks in advance.

[NihontoEurope]

Ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔｉｎｇ．

 

Ｉs there anyway to tell the difference between the shiiremono and the "real" ones?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Henry,

 

When having the tsuba in my hand it is nothing like a massproduced item, but I know almost nothing about tsubas and fittings.

 

Perhaps the "secret" is here, in the appraisal text:

 

[attachment=0]Koshirae appraisal.jpg[/attachment]

 

/Martin

[Guido]

If I read the grass script correctly, it says (in the middle column, under Handachi Wakizashi Koshirae) "Tsuba | Yama/San-?-Zu | Shakudo-ji". The old white papers (Kicho / Ninteisho) were basically issued for anything that wasn't an outright fake.

[Ford Hallam]

Martin,

 

If you examine the two sides of this tsuba you will discover that they are identical. I don't just mean similar but that they are formed from the same die. Look for an irregularity in one side and you will find the same 'mistake' in the other image.

 

 

What this reveals is that both veneers were stamped out from the same carved steel die. The time and effort it would take to create such a die means it would have been used to produce many such stampings/veneers.

 

 

These thin sheets, with their stamped decoration, are then simply soldered to a copper core thus bypassing the need for any skilled decorative work on the part of the artisan who put the 3 components together. This is the essence of mass-production.

 

Of course, not all 'san-mai' tsuba are similarly mass produced. Those early ko-kinko examples I've seen tend to be made up of far more carefully hand worked sheets applied to a copper(or yamagane) core. I think it very important to distinguish between these individually and hand worked types and later stamped simulations.

 

I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

 

regards,

 

Ford

 

p.s. It's probably worth noting that the koshirae is a handachi style and that this tsuba is entirely different workmanship. It suggests that the original tsuba to this koshirae has been replaced. A pity really as it seems quite nice and I gather the blade that accompanies it is a Kinmichi. If it were up to me I'd try to find a more fitting handachi tsuba in shibuichi (?) that would better complete the set.

[Marius]

since Ford has mentioned ko-kinko sanmai, let me show you a sanmai tsuba papered to ko-kinko. See the difference?

[Curran]

Mariusz,

 

One of these tsuba came up for sale recently in Japan.

I was trying to remember where I'd seen it before.

 

I don't think it was as clean as your example, but still a ringer.

[Marius]

Mariusz,

 

One of these tsuba came up for sale recently in Japan.

I was trying to remember where I'd seen it before.

 

I don't think it was as clean as your example, but still a ringer.

 

Well, it was me who has bought it I will now have two identical tsuba - I will compare them carefully to assess to what degree ko-kinko tsuba have been manufactured "from one mold".

[Curran]

Tre ja vu??

 

http://page5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e126994319

 

My experience with such things is the cosmos shows us two or three within 6 months, then we never see another.

There are two Ono and one Ko-Akasaka designs that I have had this experience and am still waiting several years for the next one, having let the previous two or three go...

[Ford Hallam]

Mariusz,

 

I don't think you example was made from stamped plates actually. Look at the thickness of the plates and consider the relative sharpness of the chiselled lines of the waves.

 

Curran,

 

the example you've linked to seems similar but if you overlay the patterns they don't actually match up with Mariusz' one. This one also, imo, is hand worked and not stamped from a die.

[Marius]

@Ford

 

Thanks for pointing this out. I wonder why the sandwich construction

 

@Curran

 

Thanks, this is quite amazing... A third one!

[Ford Hallam]

The san mai approach make sense if you consider the cost of a solid plate of shakudo.

[Marius]

The san mai approach make sense if you consider the cost of a solid plate of shakudo.

 

Yes, but this tsuba is made from 3 layers of yamagane, I believe. At least, I am sure there is no shakudo in this tsuba....

[Curran]

Ford is very right about the tsuba being different.

Most notable is positive waves on one being raised, while on the other they carve into the plate.

 

The yamagane sanmai construction is a bit of a logic mystery.

_____________________________________________________________

 

To return to the original thread, I too see a sanmai style tsuba.

[Ford Hallam]

I'd be prepared to bet you that if I repatinated it the outer covering would be black.

I've actually had to do exactly that when restoring similar pieces that had been stripped of all colour.

If you look inside the nakago-ana you'll see the metals are actually different.

[christianmalterre]

Henry

 

i rather think all of them are "Real" ones...it´s just an point of view and schoolarship/importance you personally do prefer-so to answer to your´s question here...LOL!

did follow this threat quite very passionate-as,like things do happen-i just spoke with Mariusz last week relating ....

It´s funny!(very funny in fact)-either way!

Let´s see....

Christian

[NihontoEurope]

A pity really as it seems quite nice and I gather the blade that accompanies it is a Kinmichi. If it were up to me I'd try to find a more fitting handachi tsuba in shibuichi (?) that would better complete the set.

 

Ford,

 

I will try to find a better tsuba, but only when I am able to see one (googling on shibuichi...) . Yes, it is a blade from Mr K.

 

Thank you for the elaboration. I have learned a lot on this thread.

 

/Martin