Teppo mei!

[Viper6924]

Hi guys!

 

I´m studying a teppo and ran into to this mei. Sorry to say, my camera broke down so I couldn´t take a better picture. Part of the mei on the side of the gun is missing. But perhaps it´s enough anyway. Otherwise I will get back the camera in 3-4 days.

Any info is as always highly appreciated.

 

All the best!

 

 

Jan

[k morita]

Hi,

The mei says "Goto Magoshiro Nobu-mura saku". 後藤 孫四郎 延邑 作

One kanji character of province can not be seen.(side of a barrel)

[Viper6924]

Domo arigato Morita-san!!

 

I will take a look at the top kanji and try to figure out the province. Shouldn´t be to hard, fingers crossed.

 

Thanks again for Your quick reply!

 

Jan

[cabowen]

Nicely cut mei...steel looks to have been cleaned quite a bit.....

[Viper6924]

Tell me about, Chris I also like the crisply cut mei. But the cleaning...

 

At least the rest of the teppo is of "original" wear.

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

It will be something like Sakuyo-Ju 作陽住　Sakiyo 崎陽　Satsuyo 薩陽perhaps.

[Viper6924]

I think You´re on to something, Piers. I will check it later. Is there any further info regarding this smith Magoshiro Nobumura? After my rather limited search, I come up with nothing. If Piers is right we are talking about the Sakai-area, I guess.

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, looking at the long stroke coming down from above, my instinct is to go for Sakuyo, which is Mimasaka/Tsuyama in Okayama. There are no Goto listed for that area, however.

 

Sakiyo if that's how you read it, is an area of Nagasaki. Satsuyo is a broad area of Satsuma. I included these because there seem to be some Goto family names dotted around Kyushu. I even wonder if there is some connection between the Go in Goto and the Go in Bungo, Chikugo and Higo, for example. (Same Kanji)

 

The actual name Magoshiro you show there which Morita San kindly read for us, is listed in Urabe but with no lower name, and no information as to location.

 

Your gun's details seem not to have been recorded by either Urabe or Yasuda/Ogasawara and would add to the knowledge. There are Goto smiths listed for Settsu, as you mention, Bungo (Kyushu) and Ashu (Awa, Shikoku). (Presumably this gun is now outside Japan.)

 

Unfortunately there seems to be little to go on, without delving into more local archives, which work is mostly what Urabe San does.

 

PS There is a Goto listing with the same unusual Kanji lower name Nobumura, but the middle name is different. Goto "Buntaro" (?) 豊太郎 Nobumura, but again no location. Is the Bun of Buntaro an indication of 豊後　Bungo in Kyushu?

[Viper6924]

Here is finally the full mei of this teppo. I really hope You can help me.

 

Big thanks in advance!

 

Jan

[k morita]

It will be something like Sakuyo-Ju 作陽住　Sakiyo 崎陽　Satsuyo 薩陽perhaps.

 

Thank you for the pics of full mei of this teppo.

 

Piers san,

 

Your guessing is right. province is "Sakiyo ju" (Nagasaki/also Hizen).

How translateing "niju-maki"二重巻 into English? double roll?

 

Made with Europeans iron, double roll.(?)

[Bugyotsuji]

An interesting amount of information cut into this gun.

 

Makibari may not have a fixed English translation today, but although it includes the concept of rolled steel, I think here it is the idea of reinforcement through wrapping, binding, twisting, or coiling with thinly-rolled steel in multiple directions.

 

Niju-maki(bari). Double-bound (or wound) barrel, doubly spiral-twisted, double opposed helix binding, etc. (Double-coil reinforcement)

[Viper6924]

Thanks Morita-san and Piers for Your very intresting input. I have a smith, an area and even matr.

Plus this unusual info about the "rolled" steel. Not every day You get all the information on one single piece.

I wonder what timeframe we are looking at? Was there any known startingdate for gunsmith regarding using european-steel?

I will post some pics of the gun after the weekend

 

Thanks a lot guys!!!!

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

As it became a fashion in sword smithing to add Namban steel to the mix, one can assume that it happened around the same time with guns. Muneshige for example was proud to be adding barbarian steel to his swords in early Edo Kanbun, so there must have been a spread of several score years either side of that, I am guessing. Can anyone shed light on this?

 

See below for one reference:

http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/tatara/nnp0203.htm

南蛮鉄はインド鉄と言われ、慶長から宝永年間まで約90年にわたり使用されました

 

This site suggests for a period of 90 years from Keicho to Hoei.

[Bugyotsuji]

Guns were being made with added Japanese coiled steel before that, although it was a closely guarded secret for a while. Hino were accused of making Udon-bari, a single rolled and welded pipe, likely to burst open. They desperately tried to get the secret out of Kunitomo or Sakai. In the beginning one layer of steel winding/binding was twisted around the barrel to give extra strength. Triple-bound barrels were the strongest; the phrase for that was So-maki-bari, ie 総巻き張り

 

Just from the written evidence on your gun, Jan, it looks to be early Edo, in fact quite an old one in the overall scheme of Japanese matchlocks, and not recorded in the books or registration records in Japan.

[Viper6924]

Piers, You are the Yoda of Japanese guns

 

I acctually got on speaking terms with my camera. So I will be able to post some pics of the gun tonight, Swedish time.

 

Thanks again Piers for Your valued input!

 

 

Jan

[Viper6924]

I´m in harmony with my camera again...

 

Here´s some pics of the teppo. It´s about 125 cm long with a caliber of about 11mm. I really like the old patina of the oak. It´s fully functional.I even think the loadingrodd is original.

Any thoughts from this boards teppo-experts are always intresting to hear.

 

All the best!

 

 

Jan

[watsonmil]

Dear Jan,

The Bubulous shaped poppy muzzle leads me to believe this to be a product of the Sakai school of gunmakers. Although there are elements of the Kunitomo, ... I think I would stay with the Sakai school in this case. I agree with Piers that it may be of early to mid Edo in date as later Sakai guns are quite often overly decorated whereas your gun is quite plain. Sadly the patina has been removed from the barrel. If it were mine I'd repatinate it ( or have it professionally re-browned ) using a plum brown barrel browning solution. The bright steel does nothing for the gun's appearance.

... Ron Watson

[Viper6924]

You right about the patina, Ron. But thats an easy thing to correct. I also have a faint museumstamp on the tip of the riflebutt that needs adressing.

But considering the age and intresting mei, it´s def worth spending some extra dineros fixing it. I also agree on the Sakai-looking muzzle and the Kunitomo paleness of the oak. But the mei puts it in the Nagasaki-area.

Who knows. Perhaps it was in use during the Shimabara Rebellion of 1637-38. For an avid samuarihistorian like myself it´s an intriging prospect...

 

/Jan

[runagmc]

Is the whole length of the loading-rod wood? If so, is that uncommon?

[watsonmil]

Dear Adam,

Virtually all tanegashima ramrods are one piece wood. I have two examples that are steel ( both are pistols ).

... Ron Watson

[runagmc]

Thanks Ron... as you can tell, my knowledge of antique firearms is pretty much non existent :D

[Viper6924]

I´ve been looking into the nanban-steel that this gun is made with. The only ref I find in my limited arsenal about Japanese firearms is a gun that was on display in New York at the Met.

It was a matchlock used by Tokugawa Ieyasu. It was made by Noda Zenshiro Kiyotaka in 1612. Forged in three layers "So-maki-bari" (thanks Piers). He used sword steel and imported irons "nanban-tetsu.

So I guess the samuari didn´t consider import steel a bad thing in guns, when even the big boss himself carried one. Is there any good ref-sites on the web regarding this an other fact about teppos?

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Jan, well done on finding that interesting piece of information. Every little piece of the puzzle is valuable.

 

A good-looking gun. You might want to consider researching, finding or making a more suitable trigger for your gun. It looks as if a Western-style trigger has been inserted at some point as a stop-gap measure. The leaf spring looks to have been bent at some point in the west in an attempt to add strength, but they are designed to be weak enough just to hold in place and then to drop the serpentine. No need for a strong spring action in a matchlock. The stock woodwork and the Mekugi ana surrounds look good, as does the ramrod. The rear sight may have had a folding ladder sight for sniping at some point.

[estcrh]

I´ve been looking into the nanban-steel that this gun is made with. The only ref I find in my limited arsenal about Japanese firearms is a gun that was on display in New York at the Met.

It was a matchlock used by Tokugawa Ieyasu. It was made by Noda Zenshiro Kiyotaka in 1612. Forged in three layers "So-maki-bari" (thanks Piers). He used sword steel and imported irons "nanban-tetsu.

So I guess the samuari didn´t consider import steel a bad thing in guns, when even the big boss himself carried one. Is there any good ref-sites on the web regarding this an other fact about teppos?

 

/Jan

Jan, do you have a link to that info?

[Viper6924]

Eric, I found this information in a book called "Art of the Samurai: Japanese Arms and Armor, 1156-1868"". A catalogue from The Metropolitan Museum of Art i NY. It´s from their exhibition that ran from oct 2009 until jan 2010. It´s a great book with very nice high quality pictures. Only one teppo. But a lot of nihonto and other good stuff.

 

Piers, thanks for the additional info. You might by right about the sniping detail. The rather small caliber compared to other teppos I seen could support that notion. But on the other hand, the barrel is not rifled on the inside. So unless Your were sniping someone within 50 meters, it would be hard to hit a bullseye.

I will def look into the trigger-issue. It´s a hairtrigger right now, I can tell You :D It´s also a really heavy gun. I pity the poor samuari who had to haul it in the hot and humid climate of Japan. Not considering 25+ kg of armor and other weapons.

Seems like the two layer teppo was used by middle to highranking samurais and the three layer for the elit who could afford it.

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

None of them were rifled, but the smaller bore and longer-barrelled guns were thought to be better (more accurate) for target shooting. There was a theory that if you could stick your gun out of a Hazama wall aperture and wound an attacking soldier on the opposite side of the moat, five of his comrades would be taken out of action carrying him away.

[Viper6924]

Sneaky people, those samurais :lol:

I find this whole concept of the teppo very intriguing. Here we have a weapon that changed the Japanese history more than any other with the yari at a close second.

Compared to the sword or bow it´s history is very brief indeed but the impact was earthshattering.

[Curran]

Partial non sequitor here: what is the wood used in this gun stock?

 

The sword kake I have is dated and location of manufacture on the bottom to 1753.

The wood grain and color looks near identical to this gun stock.

[Bugyotsuji]

A type of Kashi oak, 'akagashi', Japanese red oak.

[Curran]

Thank you.

Finer grain than most american oak I know, beautiful color with age, light weight (at least on the kake) and strong. Interesting.