mei help shinshinto blade

[Eric M]

hello

hope you are fine

i am struggling to decipher the mei and date so any help is welcome

it is a traditionnally made sword which i would put end of 18th century/beginning of 19th century

XX XX XX XX fujiwara XX XX saku

XX XX nen ni gatsu XX

thx a lot for your help

eric

[george trotter]

Eric, it looks like

Bi(shu?) Osafune Ju Yokoyama Sukemune Saku

can't see kanji for date...you'll have to take another pic of date with the habaki taken off.

Yasuri, patina etc seems to be about right for late edo...1860s period IMO.

Regards,

[Eric M]

thx a lot George !!

on the net I found a reference to BISHU Osafune (ju) Yokoyama Fujiwara Sukemune saku, (Hawley' SUK 748)

rated 10 points, working in Bizen around 1865.

 

I guess it must be this one :D

 

the rust is only present where the Yasuri-Me was done

 

still annoyed by the date, I do not understand how it works. as it is year 2, it should Benkyu, ie 1863 so to make sense, no?

the blade is nicely done and well balanced (not the typical heavy shinshinto)

 

[cabowen]

this is gimei. looks like oil quenched bar stock....

[Eric M]

What makes you believe it is gimei?

Regarding the blade itself it is 100% traditionnally made (the pictures do not show the activity properly)

[cabowen]

What makes you believe it is gimei?

Regarding the blade itself it is 100% traditionnally made (the pictures do not show the activity properly)

 

 

Poorly cut signature, crude yasuri-me, lack of hada, oil quenched hamon, or maybe it is just the photos....

[Mark]

I have a Sukemune, it was on display at the MN show, it looks classic Shinshinto Bizen Yokoyama gunome/chogi. The yasuri, mei, blade, of the sword here does look anything like mine. So i would agree with Chris

[chrstphr]

By the shape and condition of the nakago, i was guessing WWII era blade. Mass produced.

 

 

Chris

[Eric M]

the pictures do not show properly the blade but I do not believe it is a mass product / WWII blade / oil quenched blade as

-nie and nioi in the hamon (that rules out the oil quenching)

-sharpened edge near the habaki (vs unsharpened edge near the habaki for most of the sword produced in the XXth century)

-presence of ware

-blade light and well balanced

[Jean]

I have often seen such kanji writing/chiselling on 1940's blades.

The yasurime are among the crudest that can be seen. This fact is very important as nakago finishing was a trade mark for the smith. The crudest the yasurime, the lowest grade the blade.

Now have a look at the nakago and the shinogi, it is not crisp but rounded giving a feeling of a convex nakago...

 

Edit to add: I don't know if it is machine made but I am sure at seeing the nakago that there are few chances to have him listed in the Hawley. This work is is not worth a Hawley 10 points.

[cabowen]

I see no nie in any of the pictures. An oil quenched blade has a very tight nioi-guchi that looks like, well, exactly like this sword.

 

Mass produced, WWII machine made blades are usually sharp at the hamachi. Usually traditionally made blades are not (when new).

 

There is nothing about this sword that gives any indication it is anything but an oil quenched, mass produced, WWII era blade.

[Eric M]

interesting debate

I saw quite a few oil quenched blades but never saw any nioi-guchi, mostly a dull hamon (commonly found on type 3 WWII blades or machine made kai gunto). it would be great to see example of oil quenched blades and nioi guchi

 

some more pics to fuel the debate (hopefully the pics are a bit better)

[cabowen]

Here are some photos of oil quenched blades. Nie is visible without any magnification. When you magnify nioi, it can look like nie because the only difference between the two is size...

[SwordGuyJoe]

-sharpened edge near the habaki (vs unsharpened edge near the habaki for most of the sword produced in the XXth century)

 

This has nothing to do with showato vs gendaito. Most Showa era swords in original polish display ububa since they have only had the one polish.

[Brian]

I agree with almost all posts here, except I think it may be a low quality Gendaito. There is quite a bit of nie, and not a typical oil quenched hamon inho.

Still..not high quality, but may be water quenched.

 

Brian

[Eric M]

I would agree with Brian (+my pics are not very good I must admit)

the sword was in WWII mounts with its original saya covered with leather (which gives more the feeling of a 19th century one with metal complex kojiri)

from a practical side I would not understand why somebody would bother creating a gimei beginning of 20th century (especially as the smith is not very known)

would not the modern steel used end of 19th century create less pattern?

[cabowen]

Please compare these two examples of legitimate Yokoyama Sukemune signatures to yours and I think the differences in workmanship as well as signature should be clear.

[Jean]

To emphasize Chris post, please stroll along this section and Military swords of Japan section, and look at the way the kanji are chiselled... you will find a lot of similarity with yours

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Sword showed by Chris can be better seen here....

 

 

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2010/1010_2007syousai.htm