Showato in Japan

SwordGuyJoe · May 3, 2012

I was making my weekly trawl at Aoi-Art.com and came across the following seki stamped sword: http://www.aoi-art.com/gunto/11095.html. I was under the impression that showato was banned in Japan. Did something change?

pcfarrar · May 3, 2012

Looks oil tempered too, surprised it got an NTHK paper.

paulb · May 3, 2012

me too. I thought any sword with a seki or a showa stamp was regarded as a weapon by The Japanese government and not traditionally made and therefore illegal. Also no papering group papered them. I have noticed an increasing number of Gunto swords appearing on Aoe and other sites so assume something has changed in the governments deifinition of what is legal. Not sure why the NTHkK would paper a non traditionally made sword with a seki stamp.

I would be interested to learn more

Bruno · May 3, 2012

I would be interested to learn more

So do I!

cabowen · May 3, 2012

This sure seems to be an oil quenched, western steel gunto by all accounts, and with a prominent seki stamp to boot....

Registering a sword and issuing the torokusho is at the discretion of the shinsa'in. A very good friend of mine is the head shinsa'in on his prefectural licensing team and he has told me that they have on occasion awarded a torokusho to a blade they knew was a showato because of the importance it held to the family that owned it. He stressed they wouldn't license showato imported from abroad or brought by dealers. As always, the rule in Japan is actually "case by case"...

Of much more interest is the fact that the blade was awarded a kantei-sho! Somebody was asleep at the wheel.....I hope it wasn't the NTHK-NPO....

Bruno · May 4, 2012

Of much more interest is the fact that the blade was awarded a kantei-sho!

Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean exactly? That a Seki stamped showato has been judged by NTHK at a level superior than Hozon?

I found that by googleling:

"Kantei-sho will be issued according to the following system:

60-69 points: Shintei-sho (equivalent to the NBTHK Hozon level)

70-79 points: Kantei-sho (equivalent to the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon)

80+ points: Kantei-sho (plus eligible for the yearly Yushu shinsa held only in Japan)"

Somebody was asleep at the wheel.....I hope it wasn't the NTHK-NPO....

What is the real reason for such unexpected appraisal?

Thanks

cabowen · May 4, 2012

I shouldn't have used the generic term kantei-sho since it is easily confused with the NTHK's rating system.

What it means is that the NTHK (not sure which one) passed this blade at shinsa, which, given its appearance as a showato, should never happen.

I emailed Aoi and asked them which group issued the papers. Perhaps we will know more when I receive a reply....

cabowen · May 4, 2012

I just received this reply from Aoi Arts:

"The NTHK paper was issued by Nihon Token Hozon Kai (the Yoshikawa/Okada NTHK group) on January 15th, 2012."

george trotter · May 4, 2012

This is strange indeed. Even by the traditional "case by case" system in Japan. I doubt there was a "compelling reason" to paper it, such as some association or history as it has turned up on a dealer's shelf with no mention of history or anything else. It seems to be a direct contradiction to the law as I understand it. It looks like a plain Seki Kaji gunto (by a guy called Hayakawa I think...F & G Vol 1 #26 read him Kaneshiki or nori)....supposedly a proscribed item in Japan.

I hope this is not a case of "apres moi la deluge".

Just my 2 cents.

Jean · May 4, 2012

That's a question for Gordon Robson

Bruno · May 4, 2012

And is it written what level get the showato when it passed the NTHK shinsa?

Jean · May 4, 2012

Bruno,

The kanteisho not being published on Aoi-Art website, you should address directly to Tsuruta san

Drago · May 4, 2012

I'd like to hijack this thread, I hope you don't mind. How do you recognize that this blade was oil quenched?

cabowen · May 4, 2012

I'd like to hijack this thread, I hope you don't mind. How do you recognize that this blade was oil quenched?

Visually, the nioi-guchi is tight, there isn't any nie, there are hard, shiny spots at the peaks of the togari. The Seki stamp indicates it is a non-traditionally made blade. The description says it was made with Western steel. Western steel is usually oil quenched as it tends to fracture when water quenched.

This is exactly the kind of sword that Japanese law was written to prohibit. It is not an art sword, it is simply a weapon. The fact that it was licensed in and of itself is no big surprise to me as I explained above...The fact that it passed a shinsa and received a kantei-sho is quite a shock and should indeed raise some serious questions....

Bruno · May 4, 2012

I have asked Aoi, what NTHK level got the showato.

Bruno · May 5, 2012

...And here is the Aioi's answer, not exactly what I asked but it is an answer! :D

Quote :

Dear Mr. Bruno HERRMANN san.

My customer submit the blade to NTHK shinsa recently and got the paper.

I think the blade is called Hantanren sword.

The blade was polished nicely.(polishing cost will be ¥80,000)

The blade also accompanied with Gunto Koshirae.

Even if the blade is a consignment sale, we will buy back 70% of the sales price at anytime.

Recently army Gunto sword which is hantanren or mutanrento sword, price is higher than before.

It means army gunto is treated as precious historical sword.

I think NTHK issue the certificate as historical sword even if the blade is Hantanren sword.

We attach the certificate.

Recently a lot of Japanese swords are exported to foreign countries.

I think this tendency will be increasing.

Japanese swords are treated as investment.

Unfortunately Japanese people are not interested in Japanese swords, many visitors visit Japanese sword museum

and also ever growing sword expert like you.

After 15 years later, good or bad Japanese swords will be exported to foreign countries like wood block printing or Netsuke while Japanese

people are sleeping!

Would you please understand this situation.

kind regards.

Kazushige Tsuruta

Bruno · May 5, 2012

Oups! Here is the paper.

What does it says?

Bruno · May 5, 2012

I am having hard time to upload it!

Lindus · May 5, 2012

Well Bruno, this again opens the decades of debate on Showato and stamps. Really interested in seeing where this one goes.

Roy

paulb · May 5, 2012

Hi Roy,

I was thinking the same but I think we need to undersand better what the NTHK are decribing it as. From Tsuruta sans decription I think they are differentiating it from a Gendaito. If that is the case you have to ask why have they papered it? as what and is it legal? If they are saying it is traditionally made, which IMHO it doesnt look to be, then I agree we start the whole dbate again regarding whether tradionally made swords were ever stamped in this way.

"Just when you thought it wa safe to go back in the water" springs to mind!!

Brian · May 5, 2012

I personally don't think this is anything more than one exception out of thousands. Maybe someone called in a favor or maybe they were feeling generous.

Either way, we know it is not policy, and probably won't happen again anytime soon. Not too much worth analyzing, although I could be wrong of course.

Brian

Bruno · May 6, 2012

Yes the case by case seems to be the rule, here is what Tsuruta san added:

"generally speaking seki stamp and seki stamp and also showa stamp are not allowed to hold these swords.

But sometimes at the sword inspection, sword expert permit the blade as general sword.

If some one who fought at the war front, some kind judge permit to hold this sword for his long severe fight.

Recently these swords are reducing rapidly.

So NTHK permit as genuine regular sword I think.

We are not sure that these Katei organ accept as genuine Japanese sword or not.

But recently the price of these swords are increasingly higher than before.

Kind regards.

Kazushige Tusruta"

I wouldn't be surprised to see more papered in the future.

cabowen · May 6, 2012

I agree with Brian. This was a mistake or favor. There is no question the sword is not traditionally made and that the Seki and Showa stamps indicate such. And, as I have said, this type of sword is not suppose to receive a license, but there are exceptions made as I have indicated, and as Tsuruta san has corroborated.

David Flynn · May 7, 2012

A seki stamped sword passed shinsa in Sydney last year.

cabowen · May 7, 2012

A seki stamped sword passed shinsa in Sydney last year.

Perhaps its the same one...Or is it possible they could have made more than one mistake?

Bruno · May 7, 2012

Perhaps its the same one...Or is it possible they could have made more than one mistake?

I would say the shinsa team could have judged the quality of the blade. I would not be surprised that among the numerous stamped blades some were much better made than the big bulk. Even if not traditionnaly made they could have nice global shape so got a paper from shinsa. This plus the historical side can produce more than a few times a shinsa certificate.

Lindus · May 7, 2012

Wonder if the "Favour" thing is similar to those given {Alledged} to Dr Compton way back , seems to me that the whole paper thing is full of worm holes.....

Disscuss :|

Roy

cabowen · May 7, 2012

I would say the shinsa team could have judged the quality of the blade. I would not be surprised that among the numerous stamped blades some were much better made than the big bulk. Even if not traditionnaly made they could have nice global shape so got a paper from shinsa. This plus the historical side can produce more than a few times a shinsa certificate.

It's a showa-to, plain and simple. The last time I checked, shinsa teams were not papering these. As a matter of fact, I once submitted what I thought at the time to be a very nice WWII era blade to the NTHK when Yoshikawa Kentaro sensei was the head. He bounced it and told me "it is a showa-to and we don't paper showa-to". I know the NTHK-NPO will not pass them, neither will the NBTHK. As I said, they aren't even suppose to be licensed in the first place....

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