An interesting katana I bought - opinion please - Dr Watson.

[Cuirassier]

Hello

I was lucky enough to buy some very good edged weapons, including 4 fine Nihonoto katanas, from a deceased militaria collector's estate. He had clearly spent a lot of money in the past as his collection covered many quality items, not just in Japanese nihonto terms. Clearly he was most active buying during the 1970's.

 

OK, 3 of the katanas are easy; they all have meis and fulfill every facit of a known swordsmith; the only dodgy thing about them being the horrible 70's furniture / fittings.

 

The final katana is an odd one. The hamon and blade are exceptional; I am 100% sure the hamon is authentic (if it is etched, I have never seen anything this good, and bear in mind the blade was bought last in the 1970's); there are very few if any other signs of hand forging. The estate executor tried to remove the tsuka but could not. I bought it anyway. The tsuka was quite well made with silk bindings over rayskin; the fittings were pretty ugly (70's) and the habaki, although quite well made, was ill-sized and I actually managed to remove it by sliding over the actual blade. I was expecting the problem removing it was going to be that the tsuka had rusted on, or the fact the menuki peg was not easily / had not been removed. The tsuka was actually glued onto the tang! So I had to pull the tsuka apart. Underneath, the tang, it still had the coke or whatever the residue is called (it is not steel, but more blackened carbon or iron - it is hard and brittle and remains "stuck" to the steel underneath). I actually removed this (knocked and broke it off, small section after another). The steel tang underneath has the typical hand forged file marks / lines plus three mekugi-ana, which is odd of course. Apart from the mekugi-ana that was used, the other two were filled with the coke. The tang of course is therefore not signed.

 

So, I am sure the blade was made recently (70's). But I wondered if anyone had experienced or knows of such katanas and can enlighten me. My presumption is that this collector bought it either in Japan or probably America (given the era of the fittings), that it was a recent traditionally made blade.

 

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Mark

[Cuirassier]

Here they are!

 

[Cuirassier]

And 3 more

[cabowen]

Rather crudely made, oil quenched....

[Brian]

The residue is probably pine resin that was used to glue the tsuka on. Definitely not anything related to the forging.

Also, nothing suggesting post war production. After WW2, swords will be Shinsakuto and sought after. If he had bought a sword in the 70's, it would have been unusual. This one seems to be a more mass produced wartime blade.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Looks fake to my eyes

[Cuirassier]

Hi Guys

Brian: The "residue" is no longer on the tang; as I said, I removed it. It was hard iron / carbon like material you see when someone uses an anvil for example, and then after quenches the blade. It was not part of the glue! It was very metalic and clearly part of the forging process.

It is not a fake Jacques; I have seen many war time blades; fake etching and all.

 

I did not want to post the photos up for this very reason.

My original and remaining question is if anyone has come across this before, where in the 70's blades were sold with the coke (sorry, I do not know the actual term for the carbon like forging deposit) still on, glued into the tsuka. I can ratify some cowboy gluing the tsuka on to "compensate" for badly fitting furniture, but really I was asking most about the blade, or rather the coke still being on the tang, if anyone had come across this before.

 

Regards

Mark

[Brian]

Mark,

That residue, no matter what it was, had nothing to do with the forging process. How on earth do you think they get filemarks under residue from the forging process? Trust me...you are on the wrong track here. And the 70's has nothing to do with this blade either. By that date, swords like this were long illegal in Japan. You think you found a Shinsakuto from a modern smith?

You know the difference between etching and oil quenching? It's a real hamon, but not a water quenched one, and doesn't appear to be tamahagane.

Btw...if that was forging residue on the tang, it would make it a fake anyways...no real smith would ever leave that on a nakago. There has always been pride in finishing off the nakago of a Nihonto.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: What are these 70's era fittings that you keep mentioning? No such thing done in Japan. Not like there was a sword fashion change in Japan in the 70's. In fact, I bet the 60's and 70's are a time when very little happened with swords in Japan. Do you mean the 1870's?

[David Flynn]

I agree with Chris, oil tempered.

[Lindus]

Odd,when I was into final stage polishing I would occasionally when bored just carry on, then as with a Kiyonobu katana {Had six and all were zero} this one had all the attributes of a goody, even utsuri.

Unlikely with this but I wonder how many swords by lesser smiths have been dissregarded while a little gem hides beneath?.

 

One polisher in the UK had a sword described by a shinsa team a "Country smith" and dismissed at the first To ken Taikai, had it for polish as the owner just loved the thing, it was he said one of the finest blades he had worked on.

 

Roy

[Cuirassier]

Hi Guys

Well, I am not convinced, and it is not simply buyer wishful thinking. I collect, buy and sell. Virtually all of my experience is with shin guntos, so I am used to fakes, many. The blade is near perfect but not stainless. My camera is not great, but look at the closest section of each blade photo and you will see some grain, etc.

 

This sword was originally bought in the early 70's. The fittings were horrible (70's style I mean) but genuine rayskin, silk bindings, etc. It is one of 4 Japanese swords I bought from the same (deceased) collector's estate; it appears he bought all his Japanese items (including a tanto I also bought, a shin gunto with a massive hairline crack in it and and a machine made bladed kai gunto I did not) from the same US dealer. So, although the fittings were jimmied (glued on because they were ill fitting) on this particular katana, I do not for one moment believe it is a fake. The other three katanas I bought by the way are a) Nobukiyo (14C), b) Higashiyama ju Yoshihira (jo-jo-saku), c) Ueda ju Tomomaro (Gendaito). I also bought many Nazi German daggers from this estate, top quaility, authentic, every one (not keen on Borg stuff normally but always keep my eyes out). He was also a medal collector, which I am not, but his medals did very well for the estate. I actually have made such superb purchases on the other items I bought (it was a specialist medal auction that did not advertise very well so the edged weapons I bought for a song), that I would not really care if the blade was Shenzen, but it aint.

 

So, the blade was made and then given a final oil quench in order to get the "gunk" (God, I wish someone would tell me the name for the metallic residue) on the tang. I wish there was more I could be told / find out. I wish I had photo'd the tang before removing the gunk.

Cheers

Mark

[Cuirassier]

 

One polisher in the UK had a sword described by a shinsa team a "Country smith" and dismissed at the first To ken Taikai, had it for polish as the owner just loved the thing, it was he said one of the finest blades he had worked on.

 

Roy

 

Was it Tony?

[Cuirassier]

 

Edit to add: What are these 70's era fittings that you keep mentioning? No such thing done in Japan. Not like there was a sword fashion change in Japan in the 70's. In fact, I bet the 60's and 70's are a time when very little happened with swords in Japan. Do you mean the 1870's?

 

No, 1970's. The fittings remind me of the "style" of that era. Like a supermarket curry.

[paulb]

Hi Mark,

I must qualify the following by saying Showa-to are well out of my comfort zone but looking at your images I would come to the following conclusions:

1. Like you I do not think it is a fake.

2. The lack of activity and "life" in the hamon suggests to me that it is probably oil quenched.

3. I think the nakago has been severely played around with which is why it looks unauthentic.

4. The polish is very harsh (possibly acid?)

5. I cant see any evidence of it being hand forged but they may just be the images.

So while not a national treasure or maybe not even a traditionally forged and hardened blade I think that it is an authentic Japanese blade from WWII.

[Brian]

Most of us here besides Jacques have agreed it is likely genuine, but WW2 Showato. Grain or not, nothing suggests anything more.

There is still no clarity on the "1970's" fittings, or this bizarre residue on the nakago that I think was just resin.

You have heard somewhere that they oil quench gendaito leaving a residue? Are there any pics online, anywhere on the net, of any other sword with this "residue"?

Why would they put "gunk on the tang"

 

Brian

[Cuirassier]

Most of us here besides Jacques have agreed it is likely genuine, but WW2 Showato. Grain or not, nothing suggests anything more.

There is still no clarity on the "1970's" fittings, or this bizarre residue on the nakago that I think was just resin.

You have heard somewhere that they oil quench gendaito leaving a residue? Are there any pics online, anywhere on the net, of any other sword with this "residue"?

Why would they put "gunk on the tang"

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian

I once went to a blacksmiths. He made horseshoes. When he heated and quenched, there formed a black, tough as nails "gunk" / layer / carbon coloured residue on the horseshoe that flew off when hammered, as he then did. It is that to which I refer. It is not resin. Resin is plastic. This is or rather was (as I banged it off), tough metal carbon residue.

 

70's fittings for me are fittings that are not what I would have fitted; "trendy" interpretations of what they should be, like leather bindings.

Regards

Mark

 

PS If it were Showato, it would have been stamped. And anyway, the tang is too narrow for a WW2 piece.

[paulb]

Mark,

I am not sure what you are looking for, you asked for opinions and based on your images people gave their view. If you have already made your mind up as to what you have why are you asking the question?

Also not all Showato were stamped which is another reason why there is often so much debate as to whether a blade is or isnt Showa/traditional/old etc.

Also the narrowness of he nakago could be the result of someone modifying it to fit your 70's fittings and would explain its unusual and unattractive shape which I think led Jacques to his view that it was a fake.

[cabowen]

As far as residue on the nakago is concerned, it could be forging slag or burnt oil from the quench. In any case, if it is residue from the manufacturing process, it is another sign of crude mass production.

 

By and large, they only oil quenched blades during WWII. Not all showa-to are stamped. The nakago shape has little to do with the means of manufacture.

 

It certainly appears oil quenched and thus is a non-traditionally made blade. "oil quenched gendai-to" would be an oxymoran.....

 

EDIT: Pardon the redundancy.....What Paul said....

[Lindus]

 

 

 

 

Was it Tony?

 

Tony Chapman,now long gone sad to say.

 

Roy

[kusunokimasahige]

Just one remark on resin, it is not always plastic, especially not pine resin.

 

Now whether or not that was ever used on Nihon-to to fasten tsuka I dont know.

 

I tend to agree with WWII made, oil quenched, but not fake.

 

KM

[Brian]

The resin that the Japanese often used to glue tsuka onto the nakago is indeed black, hard, brittle and like carbon. I had it on my Meiji tanto, and you have to chip it off. But I have given up trying to use reason and logic in this thread.

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Pine resin (pitch) adhesive has been used for centuries, not only to fasten flint and iron arrowheads but also many other things.

 

I am convinced that also the Japanese knew of this technique.

 

The resin adhesive if made the proper way is black and when it ages gets brittle, just like Brian said in his posting.

 

Here is a video on how Pine resin adhesive is made.

 

 

KM

[ROKUJURO]

.......I once went to a blacksmiths. He made horseshoes. When he heated and quenched, there formed a black, tough as nails "gunk" / layer / carbon coloured residue on the horseshoe that flew off when hammered, as he then did.......

I am a smith and I know the usual processes.

Normal horseshoes are made of iron, not steel. Because of the low iron content they cannot be hardened and so it is useless to quench them. When the iron is cooled down in water, there is no heavy hammering afterwards.

 

Nevertheless, slag may form on the surface of a heated workpiece which is indeed hard, slightly metallic and dark gray in colour. It comes off in small and thin flakes, is not sticky at all and will definitely not be found on a NAKAGO or in a MEKUGI-ANA.

[Cuirassier]

Mark,

I am not sure what you are looking for, you asked for opinions and based on your images people gave their view. If you have already made your mind up as to what you have why are you asking the question?

Also not all Showato were stamped which is another reason why there is often so much debate as to whether a blade is or isnt Showa/traditional/old etc.

Also the narrowness of he nakago could be the result of someone modifying it to fit your 70's fittings and would explain its unusual and unattractive shape which I think led Jacques to his view that it was a fake.

 

Am after exactly what I said. I asked if anyone else had come across such an item and could explain it. Pertaining to the slag (thank you Rokujuro) and the gluing on of the tsuka.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Also the narrowness of he nakago could be the result of someone modifying it to fit your 70's fittings and would explain its unusual and unattractive shape which I think led Jacques to his view that it was a fake.

 

 

And boshi too.

[Brian]

Hi Brian

I once went to a blacksmiths. He made horseshoes. When he heated and quenched, there formed a black, tough as nails "gunk" / layer / carbon coloured residue on the horseshoe that flew off when hammered, as he then did. It is that to which I refer. It is not resin. Resin is plastic. This is or rather was (as I banged it off), tough metal carbon residue.

 

70's fittings for me are fittings that are not what I would have fitted; "trendy" interpretations of what they should be, like leather bindings.

Regards

Mark

 

PS If it were Showato, it would have been stamped. And anyway, the tang is too narrow for a WW2 piece.

Mark,

Did the blacksmith then file the horseshoe and apply decorative filemarks...and then quench it again and cover it with crud?

Makes no sense. And the fact that you say the tsuka was glued on...and the nakago was covered (in what I have little doubt was pine resin) makes it seem logical what was going on here.

You asked for opinions, we gave them. There is also better than an 80% chance the sword is, in fact, a Showato. Everything points to it.

Why not chip some of the residue off the inside of the broken tsuka and have it checked out?

 

Still wondering about those 70's fittings. Are these fittings that were assembled by Westerners during this era, or made by Japanese craftsmen in the 1970's or just older fittings that were looked at differently during the 70's? Were collectors putting together sets of fittings and mounting them differently during those days?

 

Brian

[Cuirassier]

Why not chip some of the residue off the inside of the broken tsuka and have it checked out?

 

Still wondering about those 70's fittings. Are these fittings that were assembled by Westerners during this era, or made by Japanese craftsmen in the 1970's or just older fittings that were looked at differently during the 70's? Were collectors putting together sets of fittings and mounting them differently during those days?

 

Brian

 

Thrown it away!

 

I suspect they are western, American fittings.

 

Anyway, the blade has gone off to someone who will know for sure; I am investing in new fittings for it.

 

Regards

Mark

[drdata]

I think the word you are looking for is "fire scale". Its a layer of oxidized metal that usually flakes off easily. As Brian mentions, it would have to be added after the yasuri marks, which would be post forging.

 

More likely a bonding agent to ensure a good fit with the tsuka, perhaps after someone modified the tang or decided to swap in the "70s" fittings.

 

Regards

[Cuirassier]

I think the word you are looking for is "fire scale". Its a layer of oxidized metal that usually flakes off easily. As Brian mentions, it would have to be added after the yasuri marks, which would be post forging.

 

More likely a bonding agent to ensure a good fit with the tsuka, perhaps after someone modified the tang or decided to swap in the "70s" fittings.

 

Regards

 

Hi Harry

Thanks. This is what has been suggested to me by someone else (not on the forum). That the blade's tang needed padding / extra girth / thickening. I am sure this aspect was done in the 1970's, commensurate with the fittings / furniture, and I am sure it was done in the USA, where the sword was originally purchased from.

 

I have now sent the blade off to be checked and refitted; new tsuka, saya, pretty much everything really.

Cheers

Mark

[cfm15]

JB weld ,a popular two part epoxy glue has a sort of metalic look to it.I'm thinking the gunk was something like that. No idea what 70's style fittings could possibly mean unless they were made of plastic.