Name the Hamon

[Dr Fox]

Hi all.

This is a sword I have, and it is pleasing in every way, in 1972 it was submitted to the NBTHK for Kanteisho and was issued a Tobubetsu Kicho.

The sword is attributed to Kanetane in the province of Echizen circa 1600. Blade length is 69.7cms.

Can you tell me what style or name is given to this hamon on the blade. It always appears to me to be a panoramic view of a cloudy sky.

In another post I will show the tsuba, that came with the sword.

Thanks Denis.

[cabowen]

Sure, its called

[John A Stuart]

Hi Denis, just post the pic in your original thread (this), no need to start a new thread. John

[Dr Fox]

If at first you don't succeed etc

 

Denis.

[kusunokimasahige]

濤瀾刃

 

Toranba-Midare style

 

KM

[Dr Fox]

Nice one KM

 

From your help, I find I was looking up at the sky, when I should have been=

 

toranba

Submitted by kazarena on Mon, 2007-04-09 15:19 Hamon Types

Japanese term

濤瀾刃

Definition

A hamon pattern resembling large, surging waves of the sea. Toran-midare - irregular toranba.

 

Thank you

 

Denis.

[cabowen]

Not doran-ba...

 

Hard to see clearly, but more of a notare ni gunome-midare-ba, gunome-ashi iri.

 

Doran-ba is rounded, this seems more angular. This is almost a hako-midare....

 

Doran-ba:

[Mark Green]

Hi Denis,

 

I have a Echizn Nobusada, of about the same era with a very simular hamon.

No one has been able to put a name on mine either. I think Chris has it about right. Kind of a mimi-gata Gumome-midare??

Mark G

[Surfson]

Looks like a cumulus nimbus to me!

[Dr Fox]

Hi Mark

 

Yes there is a similarity there, again an Echizen blade, what I could not find any reference to, is the way the hamon separates, and to then give the appearance of breakaway clouds. Thus picking up Roberts opinion, as did I. Is this a particular style confined to Echizen?

 

Denis.

[Mark Green]

I'm not sure Dennis.

My example is a bit more structured. Mine has 5 globes, then suguha, 5 globes, suguha. Same on both sides. Yours is a bit less organized. That could have been planned, or not.

Still kinda cool though. Plus you don't see it a lot.

[Dr Fox]

Thanks Mark

The hamon is a bit random, but in places sort of repeats, and differs on the other side. But its that scattering of pattern that was so appealing, and helped my decision to purchase this particular sword out of those offered.

 

Denis.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thanks Chris,

 

So is there any name in Nihon-to terms for a true cloud hamon ?

 

KM

[cabowen]

  kusunokimasahige said:

Thanks Chris,

 

So is there any name in Nihon-to terms for a true cloud hamon ?

 

KM

 

 

Show me a picture and I will give you the terminology....

[kusunokimasahige]

I think I am confusing wild Gunome-Choji with clouds... :

 

 

and (O)-chogi-midare :

 

BIZEN NO KUNI OSAFUNEYOKOYAMA SUKEKANE :

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss447.htm

 

YOSHISHIGE

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/images/Yoshishige.jpg

 

KM

[Dr Fox]

Thank you all

So I can record the hamon description for future reference, and being honest I was lost in the expertise. What do I record as to describe this style?

 

Denis.

[paulb]

Denis,

I think the problem is there isnt a clear cut definition. hamon are described by the combination of their elements and there are not hard and fast definitions of each example seen. One mans gunome is another mans choji and so when some borderline elements appear you will see various alternatives, as you have seen here.

Look at the overall pattern and then the elements within the larger pattern. You can then create a definition which is meaningful to you.

[Dr Fox]

Paul

 

Thats a perfectly understandably explanation, I can easily accept that. It also indicates why even with my limited knowledge and a ton of books, that I could not find a near example of this hamon. And in fairness its also part of the reason that I found it so pleasing to own. Be it quirky, unusual or just this smith showing off, it exists and my regards to all who gave considered advice in this thread.

 

Denis.

[Tcat]

Hi Paul,

 

  paulb said:

One mans gunome is another mans choji...

 

surely not in enlightened circles... :?

[paulb]

The comment came from a Japanese lecturer some years ago, so yes in some very enlightened circles indeed

I think the reference really related to some of the smaller activities seen in basically suguha hamon. there seemed to be debates around whether something was ko-gunome or choji. I agree that on the more typical later works there should be little room for confusion. But such descriptions remain subjective to some degree.

[Tcat]

  Quote

Japanese lecturer some years ago, so yes in some very enlightened circles indeed

Just because the lecturer was Japanese does not make him enlightened. I rather suspect that the top guys agree on what is classified as gunome and what is classified as choji, otherwise there would be one word to refer to the both of them.

[paulb]

Alex

I am not sure why this warrants a debate. I am aware that nationality doesnt make someone an expert in a particular field but thank you for pointing it out.

The gentleman concerned was in the UK from one of the Tokyo museums and giving talks on the behalf of a Uk one. It is so long ago I cant remember who or when. It was a comment in a conversation after the formal talks and through a translator. I think the only point he was trying to make (and so was I) is that there is an element of subjectivity in assessing and describing features on a blade. If you need examples take a look at the descriptions given in the NBTHK and the NTHK magazines of the same swords or the differences in hada descriptions between Koza and Nagayama.

[Tcat]

Sorry Paul, my intent was not to have a debate, rather better understand exactly what is meant by "One mans gunome is another mans choji". It sounds akin to "one mans octagon is another mans hexagon". Surely one is one and the other is the other, but I accept that of course there is "an element of subjectivity" to art appraisals and descriptions; I didn't mean to wind you up.

[paulb]

dont worry Alex, it isnt you its me. My wind up quotient is very low at present so I apologise if sounding over sensitive.

[Dr Fox]

  Quote

Denis,

I think the problem is there isnt a clear cut definition. hamon are described by the combination of their elements and there are not hard and fast definitions of each example seen. One mans gunome is another mans choji and so when some borderline elements appear you will see various alternatives, as you have seen here.

Look at the overall pattern and then the elements within the larger pattern. You can then create a definition which is meaningful to you.

Paul from what you say above, could 'Tobiyaki' apply here, where patches of temper jump away from the main hamon? see previous photo 04686

 

Denis.

[Brian]

Not going to hijack the thread with a debate, but Paul is right Alex. There are no absolutes here. Even with hada, the experts argue over what is itame/mokume/masame sometimes. I have seen ko-gunone that some call choji.

Once again, we are always trying to fit things into neat little categorization boxes, when sometimes things just don't fit. Naming hamon is an example of this..no absolutes and it is all for convenience.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Hi Denis

definition of Tobiyaki "rounded isolated islands of temper in the ji" which is waht you see there alternativel;y you might consider them to be

Yubashiri- "illongated islands of temper in the ji" also refered to as "footprints in snow"

Which of these you choose to use depends on how rounded you feel they are. Also rightly or wrongly I tend to think of Yubashiri as being composed of groupings of nie rather than nioi and streched more. You see examples in koto Yamashiro work.

Purley personal opinion I think I would go with tobiyaki on your illustration or illongated tobiyaki just to hedge my bets!!

[Dr Fox]

Paul

I think with your help we might have nailed this one down, advise on the link below.

The last four references are interesting, ref: “ Hitatsura is a hamon with many Tobiyaki” (not of a regular shape) and follows on with 2 illustrations of regular Tobiyaki.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/hamonpatterns.html

[YamaArashi]

Hi all!

 

I'm another Echizen (or maybe kaga?) sword owner!

 

http://www.intk-token.it/forum/index.ph ... h_id=14235

 

I was studyng my blade and searching some new ideas on the net when I see this topic: my 2cent is that the best naming is notare ni gunome.

[Dr Fox]

YamaArishi,

 

Thanks for your post, I cant follow your thread as the link won't open for me.

 

Denis.