KAI Gunto Sword Tassel

[rick123]

I have a choclate brown Kai Gunto Sword Tassel that appears to be original in every way, except that it is a not quite as wide as the Shin Gunto Tassels that I have, just a very minor difference. I don't know if this is normal as I know there were different war time manufactuers, and there could be some slight differences. Also is there a standard length on these or is there some variance by Manufactuer. Any info. or input will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,Rick

[Stegel]

Hi Rick,

All i could find was that there are 'early' and 'late' war tassels. Apparently the early ones are thinner.

This is a quote from a Web page where a Shin Gunto tassel is for sale, the description mentions:

 

This particular tassel is an early war type with bordered edges, and is much thinner and narrower than the later tassels. The tassel is approx. 22 inches in length which makes it longer than most.

 

I know on Omuhra's Web page, he mentions the difference in 'Quality' which i presume would have also meant price for the officers who needed to buy them. The better quality has the reverse colour along the edges.

 

Lengths vary, i noticed with mine that the thinner 'early' ones are generally longer, perhaps i'm wrong here, but would not mind to be corrected by some other members.

 

Hope this helps

Ernst

[Kai-Gunto]

I have 3 brown tassels and one of them looks like yours.

Its 22 inches long ,thinner but its not dark brown ,it might be for the late army officer shingunto type 3

[george trotter]

Over the years I too have noticed the different colour of brown tassels. I do know that chocolate brown is a navy tassel (seen them for sale in Japan), but as for the "tan" brown...some say they are late war army for Type 3 swords...is there any definite source for saying this? and if so why the change ?

I know there are lots of "never say never" about Japanese swords, even into later times, for example, I have seen "tan" brown tassels on Type 98 shingunto. It was said these were "non-rank" tassels worn on the swords of Civil Administration personnel (occupied territories) . These people generally wore military uniform/sword etc but without the usual regimental id marks. Well, I asked my Japanese teacher in 1979 about this and she said that her father was a medical man attached to the army in Rabaul (killed there) and he wore a uniform and carried a sword, but her memory said that his tassel was blue...so?

Not to change the thread off brown tassels, but Just one other point on tassels...on occasion we find a sword with the tassel attached to the saya ring...I have seen these at times and thought this was wrong, that the soldier who brought it back just "stuck one on" when he found one...but in latter years I am seeing in pics of Japanese soldiers posing with a sword that this was done by the army guys themselves (makes sense in the field not to have a floppy thing hanging off the hilt I suppose), so is not "wrong".

So, any thoughts...or definite sources?

Regards,

[Stegel]

Yes George,

I remember reading that towards the last few years of the war, "non rank" tassel's were actually implemented by the Japanese forces to counter sniper attacks. Assuming that snipers had worked out colours and associated them with rank.

As a result all tassel's were the 'tan' brown from that point onwards(not sure of exact date).

The navy did not have this problem as they did not differentiate rank with tassel colour.

It may have already been the case with Civil Authorities, i don't know for sure, but it would have brought all the army into line, it makes sense to me at least.

I remember Roy Lindus indicating he had a perfectly legitimate naval Kai Gunto tassel which was green or greenish, he may actually have a very late war tassel as the tsuka ito on late war Kai Gunto (with more spartan fittings) actually appears as a shade of green.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

Ernst

[george trotter]

I have heard this too, but if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. Only people close up can tell whether a tassel has some red or blue threads, or is straight brown...I wouldn't think a sniper could see the difference from a distance...it is likely, that (like WWI) carrying a sword meant an officer and they were shot first, by everyone...so tassel colour wouldn't save any sword carrying person from any enemy.

 

It is still an unanswered query...Japanese I have spoken to just say "blue, red, red/gold for army and brown for navy", and I think the more modern of them know less than we do.

Would be nice to know if there is any significance...but probably just a quality thing, and returning GIs sticking any old tassel on their sword.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards,

[george trotter]

Just saw a kaigunto with a "tan" brown tassel...so it is possible the two shades of brown are just variations...both navy.

Regards,

[Stegel]

Hi,

Definitive proof would leave this thread redundant, so.... speculate and theorise we must with what ever information we can gather!

I tend to think that the Navy tassels remained the same, that is not change from dark brown to tan, however, having said that, it makes sense that in the last years of war, manufacturing would be streamlined and even tassels 'standardised' so new issues and replacements may have become the 'tan' variant. This would be in line with the type 3 Koshirae introduction? This would make both shades legitimate for Navy swords.

 

The sellers of tassels (ebay included) don't discriminate, to them if its brown only, then its Navy. They may not know any better and generalise as we all have in the past, making it a 'lucky' mistake?

I have seen type 3 sword with blue/brn and red/brn tassels, also type 98's with tan brown, are they after war chops and changes from the returned service men (prefering different colurs and changing them) or from the various dealers handling them since? perhaps i'm wrong, but i think this would be the case.

 

I don't agree with you George, i believe a sniper would be able to (in the majority of cases) distinguish and differentiate colours of tassels. I am however happy to agree to disagree with you on this one! :D

 

I was looking at ohmura's web page and noticed another variant of tassel. This would be another 'early' colour code for Civil Authorities perhaps? Here's the link :

 

http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_050.htm

 

I wonder what the asking price on this one would be??

Cheers

Ernst

[drdata]

Interesting link. First time I have seen a stamped habaki on a non-replica.

 

Perhaps this is the genesis for the Chinese repros all having them?

 

Cheers

[Jareth]

You mention tan/brown. Aren't the army tassels more a "rust' orange brown as compared to dark brown (chocolate shade) for navy?

[Lindus]

Have posted this tassel question befor without a conclusion so will try here. Have a perfectly genuine tassel that came on a Kai Gunto,it is green.

Sword was a presentation to a German Naval officer,any Idea.s folks?.

[Kai-Gunto]

Have posted this tassel question befor without a conclusion so will try here. Have a perfectly genuine tassel that came on a Kai Gunto,it is green.

Sword was a presentation to a German Naval officer,any Idea.s folks?.

Since its a presentation navy type sword , I think they gave this color to the gaijin's , since they not was a part of the rank system.

[Stegel]

Hi All.

Roy, if its not to much bother, would you be able to post some pics of the green tassel???

I would love to see it up close!

Cheers

Ernst