Tsuba with slotted seppa-dai

[Ron STL]

This is a topic that I'd like to find some facts, or at least some logical conclusions about.One occasion, I've come across tsuba, usually early tsuba (very early Edo or earlier) that have a narrow slot cut into the seppa-dai. This slot is not a WWII alteration for a "clip" on a gunto. It is intential and is about the width and thickness of tsuka ito. Its placement on the seppa-dai means it would be covered by a seppa if a seppa would be used. I've asked several sword world Japanese about this but nobody has come up with a possible use for this kind of slot. At present, I have three examples in my collection and have found three book examples. Two other examples were seen but not photographed.

 

So this is a two-art topic...first, opinions are sought. Secondly, if you have an example, a tsuba with such a slot, I'd very much appreciate a photograph of it. One day before I time out, I do hope to pull together a well-thought-out article on this topic.

 

Ron H.

STL

[Brian]

Interesting one Ron. My first reaction would have been to say a later alteration for a leather strap with a snap on it...as we often see leather ones adapted in WW2. But looking at yours, I think the strap would go through, but not the press stud. So I think you are right...this is something else. Also the cutout has an aged look to it.

Intriguing. I assume any seppa would have an identical cutout. I can't help thinking it has to be for some form of retaining device. But no idea what form that would take.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Hi Ron -- I have seen this slot on a number of tsuba over the years. Sometimes it is open to the nakago ana and sometimes segregated as in your example. To the best of my recollection it is usually on the left side which would correspond to the thumb of the right hand when grasping the tsuka. I asked Jim Gilbert and others and no one had any clear answers except that it most likely had to do with some form of latch. I have wondered if this was to assist a samurai who had lost his left arm in removing the sword from it's saya (where the sword would be fitted a bit loose). I have not seen a fuchi fitted to go along so it's conjecture. The only other thing I can think of is that it allowed the placement of a coin holder into the saya which stuck out a bit, the slot allowing the tsuba to be seated fully.

[Henry Wilson]

I have wondered if this was to assist a samurai who had lost his left arm in removing the sword from it's saya (where the sword would be fitted a bit loose).

 

 

Sorry Pete but can't resist, as that is so funny.

 

I say when in doubt, apply Occam's razor. Maybe it was done to make it lighter....

[andreYes]

Ron,

I have a tsuba with a very similar opening on the seppa dai: eda botan tsuba.

I've posted it on this forum.

But in my case the slot is cut to the right of nakago ana.

I also haven't found out what it was used for...

[Pete Klein]

Sorry Pete but can't resist, as that is so funny.

 

So, Henry -- why is this so funny to you?

[kusunokimasahige]

Henry what a brilliant answer !!

 

Occam's Razor for Pete :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

 

 

KM

[Pete Klein]

 

...and believe it or not, I do know what Occam's razor is (please note the apostrophe).

 

Adieu.

[runagmc]

Pete, I would say, while your theory may or may not be right... it never hurts to "think outside the box", cause sometimes THAT is where you will find the answer.

 

Also, has anyone seen seppa with the same kind of slot?

[Brian]

The simplest answer would not be for weight. That is pretty far fetched given that there are easier ways to remove metal and the amount removed here is minimal. I would suggest the most logical answer would be retention devices.

As for the atual use, I guess we are still searching.

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

I have to agree to Dr.Pete´s post here...

Reading what Mr.Gilbert did say/parallel to what is left on the private writings from Georg Oeder-i have actually to agree here/despite the fact that i did not found any constructive "idea" else...

 

Sorry you did get in Crossfire Pete!

in mine eyes-and from actual datas-you are most possible right here.

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

Pete, dont feel too bad and dont take remarks so seriously please

 

For someone using the avatar of the Monkey King you sure get cross easily.

 

I rather liked the idea of the one-armed samurai even though it is very far fetched imho.

 

Was he by any chance the murderer of the wife of dr. Kimble ?

 

It is of course difficult to see whether the original seppa would have been over or around the opening in the tsuba.

 

That is why nothing definitive can be said about it.

 

KM

[Henry Wilson]

Sorry Pete, I really did think you were joking or being ironic. I did not mean to upset or insult you.... (Or is the Simpson attachment meant to insult me?)

 

 

Also, I didn't mean to suggest you don't know what Occam's razor is, I was just speaking-up.

[christianmalterre]

out of topc guys ....myself i do know..-it´s (maybe) "hard" sometimes what is/may be comming there(as an possibly(?).. thought)...

In Sum-it would,(but!)-be(!!)-more constructive(?),so if to reflect(eventually)(good old Odin?)-What does he(the old Master) want to express here??)-before posting some nonsense..(Tricky Hint)...

 

THIS "TOPIC QUESTION" IS FAR TO BEN EASY!-Not?

(at least mineself did headake about-seemingly Dr.Pete in an Ditto way...)

 

Just DO! tell me better-and shure!-i will certainly be one of the very first( maybe Nostalgic Guys) catching in "That" Line",equally...

O.K?

 

Christian

[Henry Wilson]

Maybe there are gaps in knowledge which is why this thread is flying off course. Can I ask some rather simple questions:

 

1.

I asked Jim Gilbert and others

Who is Jim Gilbert? All I know is he has a great website and I have owned a tsuba that belonged to him once. What has he got to do with being asked about a slot in a tsuba?

2.

Reading what Mr.Gilbert did say

What has Mr Gilbert written about slots in tsuba?

3.

private writings from Georg Oeder

Who is this person and what has he written?

 

Please note that these questions are not meant to upset anyone and bash any egos in any sort of way. I honestly want to find out more so I can stop being a nuisance. Also if this post (and any others I have written) are better of deleted or moved, please feel free to do so.

[John A Stuart]

He wrote; Japanische Stichblätter und Schwertzieraten : Sammlung Georg Oeder, Düsseldorf : [Katalog] (1916); you can get free copies here. http://archive.org/details/japanischestichb00vaut Jim Gilbert has been around awhile. John

[christianmalterre]

Henry :|

speaking honestly here-this threat did not fall anyways "off course" here...

It´s in sight-rather an matter of "Chivalry"-here....

You-as an common(rather new to ben seen)collector;do have plenty of excellent literature...so to do an sufficient learning,study,examination in that specific field...

We(short group)-as(perhaps the old nostalgic party)-did have(in addition)some further insights-rather not,to say this very honest to you...(?)..(!)

So(?)

I will certainly not comment on this!

As-(it´s our´s money here we did invest in plenty of literature and plenty of Tsuba-and it´s very certainly NOT the Your´s! interestst so to accumulate our´s past mistakes we did...)

Enough?

 

Christian

[runagmc]

It is of course difficult to see whether the original seppa would have been over or around the opening in the tsuba.

 

That is why nothing definitive can be said about it.

 

It looks like the seppa would definitely sit over the slot to my eyes...

[Henry Wilson]

I am starting to think long and hard before I post now as I feel we are going down a slippery slope and no one will want to talk to me any more or they will start to get nasty.

 

He wrote; Japanische Stichblätter und Schwertzieraten : Sammlung Georg Oeder, Düsseldorf : [Katalog]

Thank you John for the answer.

 

Jim Gilbert has been around awhile.

Respectfully, so has Clint Eastwood but but he is not being suggested as the final word on Tosogu.

 

Enough?

I don't hope so as what has your post got to do with the questions I asked?

 

Respectfully, is the old-school closing ranks???

 

Please note that this post is not intended to upset anyone and bash any egos in any sort of way. I honestly want to find out more so I can stop being a nuisance. Also if this post (and any others I have written) are better off deleted or moved, please feel free to do so.

[John A Stuart]

Not to worry, I don't see nastiness as being productive. Shall we concentrate on the subject at hand and minimise levity that may be misconstrued by those of differing cultures and/or backgrounds? I like a good ribbing as much as the other guy, but, think twice and write once. Just a reminder that the eyes of the world attend what we have to say and once written persist a good amount of time. Not to point any fingers, just a reminder. John

[docliss]

The aperture on Ron’s tsuba would clearly be covered by the seppa and by the tenjō-gane of the fuchi, and can thus have no function when the tsuba is mounted on a sword. Surely this was simply an alternative method for moving the metal of the seppa-dai in order to reduce (or increase?) the size of the nakago-hitsu?

 

John L.

[Brian]

John,

Unless the seppa and fuchi had identical cutouts? Which is what I suspect, but cannot prove.

 

Brian

[christianmalterre]

Yes Brian-this is the only possible way it(functionality)would work.

John is right in this observation of course-so they had to ben altered equally.

 

As i did write already-i did made mine mind about this couriosity already-and found some remark written down on one letter left by Oeder.

Here he states(in German)

"Möchte wohl Ähnlich in Funktionalität und Ausführung-zu den Modernen Kaiserreich-Ausführungen sein"

"Habe Solches schon gesehen-Die Klinge wird durch Daumendruck gelöst"

 

(in mine english connaissances(pardon)vaguely translated:

"May,most probably similar in functionality and execution like those to ben found in the modern Imperial Army"

"Have seen such once,the blade gets drawn out by simply pressure with the thumb"

 

So-here an(maybe) sophisticated explanation for those...(Dr.Pete´s above answer in fact)...

 

Question to those familiar with the swords of the early Army here...

Is such known regularely already?(Oeder was after those sources i do have staying in Japan 1904)

Otherwise asked-when did this Thumb-system did ben regular?-I am quite shure-this topic is mentioned somewhere in the relevant literature...?

 

 

??

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

A cut-out seppa part was exactly what I meant when I said the seppa probably was not overlaying the rectangular opening.

 

Couldnt find the proper word for it, thank you Brian !

 

John, thank you for posting that great reference book in German ! ( So happy I can read several languages now )

 

KM

[docliss]

Brian, seppa being disposable items, I am not surprised if none have been identified with cut-outs such as you surmise. But how many thousands of fuchi have our many members seen between them but, I suspect, not a single one such as you describe.

 

John L.

[runagmc]

The aperture on Ron’s tsuba would clearly be covered by the seppa and by the tenjō-gane of the fuchi, and can thus have no function when the tsuba is mounted on a sword. Surely this was simply an alternative method for moving the metal of the seppa-dai in order to reduce (or increase?) the size of the nakago-hitsu?

 

John L.

John L, that's another good theory, but when I look at the 2 tsuba,

 

1st, It doesn't look like there's been any deformation at all to me

 

2nd, If they used this method to deform the material to change the width of the nakago ana, I think mabey they would have refilled the hole to hold the altered shape of the ana

 

3rd, It doesn't seem very likely they would use the method you propose, when the methods of punching around the nakago ana edges and using sekigane, or filing to make the ana bigger, were the norm, and seem like better solutions to the problem

 

Your suggestion was a good one, and I hadn't thought of it until you said it, but after looking at the tsuba pictures again it seems unlikely to me. I also think some kind of latch mechanism is the best theory I've heard so far... but either way, the lack of examples of this type of alteration is puzzling

[docliss]

Adam

 

It doesn’t look like there’s been any deformation at all to me.

The slot was an original feature of the tsuba and, as you correctly observe, has not been subsequently used; the metalworker obviously preferred the more conventional methods that you describe.

 

If they used this method to deform the material to change the width of the nakago ana, I think mabey (sic) they would have refilled the hole to hold the altered shape of the ana.

Why? Certainly not for aesthetic reasons, bearing in mind the mess that is frequently made during the refitting of a tsuba. And refilling it to retain the shape of the altered nakago-ana would not be necessary.

 

John L.

[runagmc]

The slot was an original feature of the tsuba and, as you correctly observe, has not been subsequently used; the metalworker obviously preferred the more conventional methods that you describe.

Hi John L, So are you saying you think the slot was cut at the time the tsuba was originally made, with the forethought that it would be used for adjusting the nakago ana if it were ever remounted? And then when adjusting was needed, someone decided to use punches and sekigane rather than the built-in "adjustment slot".

If you look at the tsuba that Andrey posted a link to, the slot is cut over part of the mei, so at least in that case, I don't think it was original to the tsuba. If I have completely misunderstood what you were saying, I apoligize in advance.

Why? Certainly not for aesthetic reasons, bearing in mind the mess that is frequently made during the refitting of a tsuba. And refilling it to retain the shape of the altered nakago-ana would not be necessary.

My thinking was that if the cut out slot wasn't refilled with something after the deformation was done, a couple of bumps to the tsuba againsnt something hard could cause the nakago to push the deformed area of the ana back, loosening the fit. If I was making that alteration and I wanted to make sure the ana maintained a tight fit, I would refill the hole... but maybe it wouldn't be necessary, as you say.

 

BTW, Your welcome to correct my spelling in the future when quoting me

[Toryu2020]

Just to set the record straight;

 

Jim Gilbert:

 

Shinsa team member, director of the NTHK, president of the New York Token Kai and vice president of the American branch of the NBTHK. He began studying Japanese art history in college and later developed an interest in swords and fittings. He joined the NTHK and began visiting Japan to study in the 1990's. A direct student of Hagihara Mamoru. He began volunteering at NTHK shinsa in the US in 1997 and formally joined the shinsa team as a researcher in 2002. He became a full member of the fittings shinsa team in 2004. His area of specialization is pre-Edo period tsuba and kodogu. He has published on the subject in the US and Europe.

[Henry Wilson]

no offense intended,

Frankly I am offended. I don't see why you posted your post other than to poke me in the eye. You could have taken the time instead to answer my questions.

 

Thank you Toryu for answering my questions and not insulting me.