Type99 Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 Recent sword find here with an unusual long narrow blade. The blade appears to have been repolished. And I think it's old. Now here's the problem someone has glued the tang and the tang peg into the handle. Which means I will have to destroy the handle to see if their any any tang markings. Would a X-ray reveal any markings if present? Quote
george trotter Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 Are you sure the peg and handle have been glued? Can you see glue? It is very common to find a tight peg and handle. Often the peg will come out with a careful tap and the handle can be loosened with a wooden handle removing tapping tool. Please investigate these things before taking any rash action. Look at the Kashima sisters site for these tools etc (google Usagiya)....also I'm sure members will be able to point you to helpful information on how to remove a tight handle. The sword looks like it has merit...quite graceful and it has hada, so is possibly an older blade. Regards, Quote
runagmc Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 From the pictures, this could be a nice, and very old sword. Please be carefull with it. Here's info on handling and other important articles, http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/treatment.html http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/information.html Quote
Veli Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 Looks interesting! Could you give us the dimensions? Veli Quote
Type99 Posted April 13, 2012 Author Report Posted April 13, 2012 I did manage to get the handle off last night and discovered probably the most tang markings I have ever seen on a tang. At the moment I'm away from home due to busniess and will post more pictures in the near future. Quote
Eric H Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 These are the best tools for gentle removal of tight handle. I have the same. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tools.html Eric Quote
Kevin Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 Eric H said: These are the best tools for gentle removal of tight handle. I have the same. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tools.html We do a bamboo and rosewood version. A bit pricier. :-) Kevin Quote
pcfarrar Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 If its glued try using some acetone, that should loosen it enough to remove. Quote
cabowen Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 Four posts ago the OP stated he has already removed the handle Quote
runagmc Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 This blade kinda has a Naminohira look to it, to me... It will be interesting to see the nakago... Quote
John A Stuart Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 If this isn't 'Kane' something or other and late Muromachi period, I'll I'll..... !! I'll be wrong. John Quote
pcfarrar Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 I was thinking Muromachi Bizen Kiyomitsu or the like. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Quote
paulb Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 well I think the suggestions so far have pretty much covered the whole of sword making history from the 13th to the 19th century I admire everyones confidence in committing themselves on the images so far but doesnt the range of ideas suggest that there is insufficient detail visible to make any form of judgement? Quote
Brian Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 Paul, I think we long ago admitted and accepted that online kantei is iffy at best. But still a bit of fun to have a guess and see who is closest. No-one should take online kantei as fact, but there are still indicators that can narrow down the schools etc. and there is always something to learn if people will justify their guesses. Anyways, just a bit of fun. Brian Quote
paulb Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 Brian, God forbid I should stop people having fun. All I am trying to suggest is that to make attributions based on what was visible in the images might be considered brave at best or otherwise foolhardy. The range of the suggestions confirm that based on what's seen one can only guess and other than the joy of gambling there is not too much merit in it. Quote
Pete Klein Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 Just an observation Brian. I find it interesting that in this 'kantei' there are few actual reasons stated in the posts for the given attribution(s). Wouldn't it be better if a reason or list of attributes were given along with the call? Ohh -- that's right. That would require examination, reference and knowledge of the subject matter. What was I thinking??? It's a Heian Jidai Awataguchi. There you have it. Now you have a $100,000 sword. Wasn't that easy? Quote
Brian Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 Pete, Hence my hint/suggestion about posting reasons. But for the record, this isn't a kantei session...it was about removing a stuck tsuka. And people throwing out a few light hearted guesses knowing full well that there isn't enough info or pics to make a serious judgement is not the same thing. We know the nakago is signed, so will know the final answer, so not even like anyone is misleading the OP. We await the mei pics. Brian Quote
chrstphr Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 i will post how i arrived at my opinion though i know next to nothing about Nihonto. The length and shape was similar to early koto tachi, but as it doesnt appear to be shortened, so that means it could be shinshinto when they had the revival and made swords to mimic the earlier sword shapes and lengths. Also the kissaki shape looks alittle off for koto. Also the sori isnt very deep. I think the sori would be more for a koto tachi that length. The overall shape and what details i could see, looked like it was a copy of an early tachi, not an actual early one. late muromachi they werent making swords this long, and were transistioning into shorter katanas. But they did make them this long in the shinshinto period under the revival period and were under no obligation to shorten them. If from a koto period, i would think this would have been shortened at some point as most were. I think very few were not, unless they were locked away in some shrine or burial. It is very rare to find an unshortened koto tachi this long with mei in shirasaya without papers. Whomever had the shirasaya made would certainly have sent it to shinsa if it were an early signed tachi this long even with gimei mei. i assume the shinshinto smith wasnt very famous, or the mei is already determined gimei and the cost of shinsa was weighed and then decided against. so the given length and shape....shinshinto. But i am an armchair nihonto idiot. I just guessed to see if my supposition was anywhere close. For all i know, its a long lost masamune from the 1200s worth a million dollars. I am by no means an expert, not even a novice, i was just having fun guessing. Chris Quote
runagmc Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 My guess of Naminohira was by no means an attribution, but just a light hearted observation to add to the conversation. If you look at some koto Naminohira, it should be obvious how I came to that guess. I don't deny that there are other possibilities though. Quote
paulb Posted April 14, 2012 Report Posted April 14, 2012 Chris Thanks for your explanation which I think is perfectly valid based on what you were able to see, and you may be right. I wasnt trying to moan at anyone in my earlier post. As Brian says the OP wasnt asking for opinions about the sword only how to remove a stubborn tsuka. If they had been seeking opinion then within four posts we seemed to have covered the whole of sword making history and I thought it strange that people were able to make what appeared to be such definitive calls on what they could see (this may be pure jealousy on my part). There is nothing wrong in having a go and guessing and as you say it is fun. What makes such an exercise useful is when, as you have, you outline how you reached the answer you did. Regards Paul Quote
Type99 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Posted April 19, 2012 As promised here are the tang markings. The sword measures end to end 34.50 inches. The blade is 27 inches. Max blade width is 1.10 inches and narrow's down to .620. The tang does not appear to have been shorten. And I'm a bit surprised to see only one tang hole. Quote
Mark Posted April 19, 2012 Report Posted April 19, 2012 from the shape and condition of the nakago it looks, to me, to be Showa era, maybe one of those swords made around 1930 with "big" names. If so it was made by a decent smith as the areas of Ohada do give it a Koto look. Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted April 19, 2012 Report Posted April 19, 2012 No, it's a real Japanese sword, false signature. Fake would be a Chinese copy. Quote
runagmc Posted April 19, 2012 Report Posted April 19, 2012 All the clean unpatinated steel around the mei gives me the impression that the engraving was done after the patination of the nakago took place. Is the patina artifically done or is it from age? I'm not sure about Showa. Mabey it's an older mumei sword with a newer fake mei. Quote
paulb Posted April 19, 2012 Report Posted April 19, 2012 Well Chris, It looks like your Shin-shinto guess was closest of all. I think I am with Chris B on this one as being Showa period although I have seen and owned something similar in style (mine was a gimei kanesada) which had almost identical caligraphy, nakao style and finish. that piece came to the UK in around 1920 so this piece may fall a little earlier than Showa. The other pointer is if you look at the thickness around the junction of nakago and polished blade there is little evidence of the blade having been polished often. based on the above I think it is unlikely to be an earlier blade which has been subsequently modified and patinated. Quote
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