The Seki Tanrensho book and others related infos

[Bruno]

Hi everyone,

 

I was reading Dr Stein's wonderfull website and saw he mentioned the book Seki Tanrensho book printed in 1939.

 

In this book it seems are mentioned the numerous Seki kaji tosho whose very but very few informations are avaible tilll now.

 

As you guys know, I am very interested in the various method of construction of Japanese swords of this period (WW2). It seems a large different kind of different steel were used (Guensui, Yasuki steel, Mantetsu steel, tamahagane, stainless steel, western steel etc...), and also many different techniques (machine made, hand made, partially both, traditionnal etc...).

 

We all know that many of these swords were not traditionnaly made, but there are so few infos on what were really the methods of construction used at that time. I also think one cannot put all these smiths whether they were traditionnaly or not trained in the same 'basket".

 

I have never found any serious infos, texts or photos of their "factory", equipments used etc...

 

In SLOUGH's book, some are present, but so few.

 

Does anyone has a copy of this book? What are the infos inside it?

 

Is there a english copy?

 

Does anyone know if an author is planing to write a complete book with ALL the Seki kaji toshi including the more than 200 showato makers + gendaito makers, with all the oshigata, techniques? A bit like SLOUGH one but more complete and detailed.

 

A book like that would be a dream for every WW2 Japanese swords collectors.

 

Thanks

[Rich S]

I believe Jinsoo Kim did an English translation of the book you mentioned. You might try contacting him.

 

Rich S

[Bruno]

Thank you Richard, I will contact him.

 

Just I do not remember who he is.

[Bruno]

OK I found the website!

 

http://www.jp-sword.com/

[cabowen]

I do not believe the Seki info you are inquiring about was a book- as far as I know, it was just a list of smiths.

 

With a few exceptions, most smiths working in Taisho/Showa can be put into two categories- trained smiths who made blades with traditional materials in a traditional way, and all the others.

 

If you wish to collect nihon-to, it is the first group that will draw your attention. If you are interested in non-traditional blades which are not considered art swords, then the possibilities are much greater.

 

There are some WWII era publications with photos of traditional smiths working but they are scarce. There are even fewer pictures available of sword manufacturing at arsenals and factories for what I assume are obvious reasons.

 

Hope that is of some help.

[Bruno]

In fact I am interested in all swords made in Showa/Taisho era, but would collect only gendaito.

However, I think interesting to know everything with the more details, photos, infos possible on the whole aspect including the "bad smiths".

 

There are some WWII era publications with photos of traditional smiths working but they are scarce. There are even fewer pictures available of sword manufacturing at arsenals and factories for what I assume are obvious reasons.

 

Yes, I hope one day more will pop up.

[cabowen]

 

"There are some WWII era publications with photos of traditional smiths working but they are scarce. There are even fewer pictures available of sword manufacturing at arsenals and factories for what I assume are obvious reasons..."

 

Yes, I hope one day more will pop up.

 

They can't pop up if they weren't taken ....

[Bruno]

They can't pop up if they weren't taken ..

 

So no chance there are some covered archives somewhere with these infos?

 

I remember a post with a civilian mount showato. The blade was broken and one could see clearly a shingane. Here is the link:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12276&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=core+steel

 

Despite these blades were not traditionnal, I am sure among the non traditionnal trained smiths, all of them have a large range of different skills. A bit like nowadays westerner smiths.

 

My interest is more historical, and I am sure a lot of unexpected interesting infos are sleeping somewhere. Once again I make clearly the difference between showato and gendaito, but all these new methods of construction, new steel to attempt to improve quality, all these unknown smiths are not so well known.

[cabowen]

Very few photos exist because it was not allowed during the war to photograph military installations (spies). I have a few photos of inside arsenals and the outside of them, including one that shows a sign that says no photographs....

[Bruno]

I have a few photos of inside arsenals and the outside of them, including one that shows a sign that says no photographs....

 

May you please post these photos?

[cabowen]

I would be happy to but they are in storage along with most of my library awaiting the completion of our house....

[Bruno]

I would be happy to but they are in storage along with most of my library awaiting the completion of our house....

 

OK this is another problem! Thanks anyway, maybe one day...

[k morita]

Hi Bruno, :D

I have not seen [seki tanrensho booklet] yet.

Probably 200 or more Seki swordsmith names(during WW2) appear in this booklet.

 

I think that the 200 or more name of WW2 period Seki smith, also appear on a book [The history of Seki city](Pub, 1967).

So, I ordered a secondhand bookshop for [The history of a Seki city].

When the book arrives, I am going to write some here.

[Bruno]

Wow great Morita san, thanks!

 

I know it is not the most interesting part of the Japanese swords history, but as very few things are well known, I would like to learn more (I hope I am not the only one here! :lol: )

 

Hopefully your new incoming book will provide nice fresh news clues!

 

From my side, I asked Jinsoo Kim if he has a english version of the booklet/list of the seki tanrensho.

 

Thanks again to you and Chris and Rich.

[k morita]

Does anyone know if an author is planing to write a complete book with ALL the Seki kaji toshi including the more than 200 showato makers + gendaito makers, with all the oshigata, techniques? A bit like SLOUGH one but more complete and detailed.

A book like that would be a dream for every WW2 Japanese swords collectors.

 

 

Hi,Bruno

I think that it will become a very good reference book if someone buys the publishing right of SLOUGH's book and adds many Oshigata(s) of [Nihonto oyobi Nihon shumi].

Maybe it become great tang Oshigata book.

[george trotter]

Hi Morita san and Bruno...

This is a very interesting thread. Like you Bruno, I am interested in collecting gendaito of WWII, but I am also interested in the history of the non-traditional gunto from Meiji to the end if WWII.

While this is an area of non-traditional swords, some very effective weapons were made, using new ideas for steel manufacture, forging techniques and battle testing. ..I refer to Gunsui Electric Steel Co., Yasuki iron, Mantetsuto, Mikasa steel etc etc.

 

I agree it would be a great help to collectors if the Slough book was continued and expanded...a great idea Morita san...I would like to see the important information/oshigata of the "Nihonto oyobi Nihon Shumi" also included.

 

While I intend to stay a collector of gendaito, I am interested in knowing more about the production of the non-traditional gunto as I have seen some very good variations and have had good opinions (from advanced collectors of traditional blades) on the quality of such swords as Gunsuito and others like Mantetsuto.

 

I look forward to information from the book "The History of Seki City" from Morita san.

 

Bruno, I think I read somewhere that the booklet "Seki Tanrensho" 1939 had 209 names, and this was expanded with new names added so that by 1944 there were at laest 232 names of registered swordsmiths...maybe someone knows more about this.

 

Regards,

[k morita]

Hi,

I got a book [The history of Seki cty](Pub,by The board of education in Seki city. 1967 ) today.

This thick book is not sword books but a book written about the history of Seki, or the history of industry in Seki and administration.

 

I got to know the following matters with this book:

 

(1) The 232 swordsmith name of WW2 period appears in this book(smith name,real name,address,Registered date to The Seki Edged Tool Industrial Association).

(2) The number of Seki swordsmiths registered into the edged tool association in 1939 was only 61 sword smiths.

So, Mr,Jinsoo mentioned on Dr. Stein's site http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/seki.htm

[ During WWII more than 200 swordsmiths worked only at Seki province to supply qualified swords for their soldiers. Their names began to appear in Seki Tanrensho printed in 1939. Some smiths in this list worked as Rikugun Jumei Tosho and they produced "both good and poor blades together". However most of these smiths produced low grade Showato. This list shows their smith name and real name.]

 

(3) 232 swordsmiths was the number of swordsmiths registered into Seki Edged Tool Industrial Association from 1939 to 1944.

 

(4) The cause by which "Sho" stamp started.

 

Sorry poor my English.

[cabowen]

(4) The cause by which "Sho" stamp started.

 

 

Can you tell us more about the reasons given in this book? I have read this somewhere but there was a post here recently by someone wanting a source and reasons for the use of the Sho stamp....probably a lot of people would like to hear more from a documented source...

 

Thanks, as always, for sharing...

[Kiipu]

On 4/13/2012 at 8:53 PM, k morita said:

I got a book [The History of Seki City] (Pub, by The board of Education in Seki City. 1967) today.

This thick book is not sword books but a book written about the history of Seki, or the history of industry in Seki and administration.

 

I got to know the following matters with this book:

(4) The cause by which "Sho" stamp started.

 

If you still have the book, can you provide a copy of the page in question about the "Sho" stamp?

[Kiipu]

On 4/13/2012 at 8:53 PM, k morita said:

I got a book [The history of Seki City] (Pub. by The Board of Education in Seki City. 1967) today.

 

Below is the citation for the book.

Sekishi kyōiku iinkai 関市教育委員会 [Seki City Board of Education]. Sekishi-shi 関市史 [History of Seki City]. Seki: Seki City, 1967.

https://ndlonline.ndl.go.jp/#!/detail/R300000001-I000001107649-00

 

The table of contents can be found at the link below.

https://www.library.pref.gifu.lg.jp/gifuken-mokuji/seki/seki.htm

[Kiipu]

@k morita I sent you a private message in Japanese 日本語 about this topic.