Tadayoshi (or maybe not?)

[Marius]

Dear All,

 

I have recently bought a nice shinto katana from Mike Yamaguchi, whom I like and respect very much as a very honest, trustworthy and friendly nihonto dealer.

 

Mike has sold this katana as gimei, probably being upright and honest as akways. However, I am not so sure, given the quality of the konuka hada and the suguha hamon as well as the boshi. I am a novice (for three years now), so I don't claim I can assess this ora any other sword (I wouldn't even recognise it as Hizen-to if it were not described as such). But if I had to make a guess, I would say it could be 6th generation Tadayoshi (please do not ban me for my arrogance)

 

I am probably totally wrong, but regardless of that, I feel that I have purchased a very nice sword that I love (just got it today) at a fair price. Which is a good thing ina nay case and which gives me great joy

 

What do you think of this sword? Am I right or (most likely) wrong? Is it Tadayoshi 6th generation or not?

 

You will find the sword's pictures on my page: http://web.mac.com/mariuszk/iWeb/Site/T ... atana.html

 

 

Sorry to bother you with that, but the friendly attitude of this board has encouraged me to post this question.

 

Best regards :D

[Ford Hallam]

Hi there , Mariuszk.

 

Seems to me you've got a lovely looking blade the and it does indeed appear to exhibit a classic Hizen "look".

 

You may find a bit more to whet your appetite on this somewhat specialised site, http://www.hizento.net/home.htm.

 

congratulations on your new "baby",

regards, Ford

[mike yeon]

Very nice looking blade. Judging by the timeframe your blade could have been made by the 6th or 7th tadayoshi. Both I believe are ranked chu-jo-saku in fujishiro's so 50/50 on being gimei based on that alone.

 

Personally, for whatever reason, I've seen more gimei blades come out of that school than any other shinto schools.

 

You should ask Mike why he believes it's not sho-shin. I'll check some oshigata I have later.

 

Either way, beautiful blade.

 

mike

[pcfarrar]

Interesting sword, undoubtably gimei. The lack of nie is the big give away.

[paulb]

Congratulations I think you have bought a very nice sword.

I think it has a strong Hizen look, the lack of Nie that Peter mentioned is applicable to the first 3 and 8th generation but from the 4th onwards the amount of nie decreased dramatically, so not really an indicator as to whether this is the work of the 6th generation. I would discount the 7th, his work is incredibly rare, infact in some circles his existence is disputed. So you are left looking at the 6th.

I dont think the mei is right, but I do think it is a very good looking sword and I am envious of your purchase.

well done.

[pcfarrar]

Comparing this with the examples of the 6th in Robertshaw's book, the tada and yoshi characters are completely different.

 

Lately historian333 has been selling a great number of gimei swords and they all have a similar kind of style to the nakago, very crisp with a "recent" look. I have wondered if these are all gimei made in the early 20th century.

[w.y.chan]

Its always difficult to tell by photos alone. I am bit of a camera nerd and certain p&s digicams can make an object look false due to internal auto correction. That aside I dont wish to make claims as to the validity of this particular sword but from what I can see if just looking at the blade it remind me of Bungo Takada of the Shinto period in particular its lack of nie. It does appear to have a Hizen nakago, could be a reworked blade or a bonafide fake from the start. If it is genuine pretty sure Mike would have gotten it papered, he is or was based in Japan also and no problem for him to submit the blade for Shinsa.

 

W

[Marius]

Comparing this with the examples of the 6th in Robertshaw's book, the tada and yoshi characters are completely different.

 

Lately historian333 has been selling a great number of gimei swords and they all have a similar kind of style to the nakago, very crisp with a "recent" look. I have wondered if these are all gimei made in the early 20th century.

 

That is true, but I guess it would be necessary to notice (for all message board members who do not know him), that historian333 never makes any misrepresentations as to what the sword he sells could actualy be. Also in this case he has indicated that the mei is questionable at best. In other words, he has warned buyers that it is most likely gimei.

 

BTW, many thanks for your opinion about the looks of the mei. It looks as if this sword is indeed gimei.

 

Best regards

[Marius]

Its always difficult to tell by photos alone. I am bit of a camera nerd and certain p&s digicams can make an object look false due to internal auto correction. That aside I dont wish to make claims as to the validity of this particular sword but from what I can see if just looking at the blade it remind me of Bungo Takada of the Shinto period in particular its lack of nie. It does appear to have a Hizen nakago, could be a reworked blade or a bonafide fake from the start. If it is genuine pretty sure Mike would have gotten it papered, he is or was based in Japan also and no problem for him to submit the blade for Shinsa.

 

W

 

Just to sum up the topic:

 

1. Thanks

First of all many thanks to everybody. It is great to see so many people responding to a novice's question. Great education, too :D Thank you ever so much, it really was a great experience :D

 

2. Verdict:

The sword is a gimei and not a Hizen Tadayoshi. The giveaways are the signature which difers from the original and the lack of nie. The crisp look of the nakago may indicate that the sword might even be gendaito (I'll have to look at the nakago again, I do not think the patina looks as "fresh" in reality as in the pics)

 

3. Conclusion for the buyer (me ):

Still, it is a nice sword and I should be happy having purchased it for $2300 (correct?) At least that is what I hope, but being a novice collector, I am not confident in my own judgements, so I do need assurance from experts. Please understand :-)

 

Best regards

[Marius]

I do think it is a very good looking sword and I am envious of your purchase.

well done.

 

Before I forget:

 

Many many thanks to everybody here for those very warm and encouraging words :D

 

 

best regards

[pcfarrar]

Still, it is a nice sword and I should be happy having purchased it for $2300 (correct?) At least that is what I hope, but being a novice collector, I am not confident in my own judgements, so I do need assurance from experts. Please understand :-)

 

I think its not so bad for the price, a decent quality blade and you don't need to spend anything on it.

 

The shirasaya looks quite new, did you ask Mike where he got the sword? I wonder if it was in gunto mounts?

[Marius]

 

I think its not so bad for the price, a decent quality blade and you don't need to spend anything on it.

 

The shirasaya looks quite new, did you ask Mike where he got the sword? I wonder if it was in gunto mounts?

 

I thought that when you send a sword to be polished, you always get a new shirasaya. Right?

 

Best regards

[pcfarrar]

Only if you ask for it. You can have old shirasaya split and cleaned out.

[Marius]

Only if you ask for it. You can have old shirasaya split and cleaned out.

 

This makes sense :-) Thanks for the information :-)

 

Regards

[pcfarrar]

I have a wakizashi by Omi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro (2nd generation). I got it cheap from Mark Jones who was selling it here on this board. The signature was real but the blade was heavily damaged by amateur cleaning. I think it had lost 30% of the steel off the shinogi alone!

 

I decided to send it over to Japan for polishing. Here's the before pictures:

 

 

As you can see it was in a horrible state, the end result follows. It was not possible for the polisher to repair the damage to the shinogi but it came out ok:

 

[Stever]

Ok, time for a stupid noob question. What am I supposed to see in the before pics, besides the obvious scratching? Do you just mean that all the surfaces had been ground down far too much, or is there something else I'm missing?

 

Too much to learn!

 

Thanks,

[Marius]

I have a wakizashi by Omi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro (2nd generation). I got it cheap from Mark Jones who was selling it here on this board. The signature was real but the blade was heavily damaged by amateur cleaning. I think it had lost 30% of the steel off the shinogi alone!

 

As you can see it was in a horrible state, the end result follows. It was not possible for the polisher to repair the damage to the shinogi but it came out ok

 

Peter,

 

that is a very interesting story! Wow, it is unbelieveable what idiots can do to a good blade. The polishing has been done by Kokaji (Kashima sisters) or am I wrong. Nice sword, it is wonderful that you have managed to restore it.

 

Best regards

[Marius]

Ok, time for a stupid noob question. What am I supposed to see in the before pics, besides the obvious scratching? Do you just mean that all the surfaces had been ground down far too much, or is there something else I'm missing?

 

Too much to learn!

 

Thanks,

 

Steve,

 

the shinogi has been flattened. No easy way to repair this withouth removing too much "meat" from the blade. Besides, pictures do not indicate everything, while when you hold a blade in your hand you will feel that too much "meat" has been shaved off.

 

Regards

[pcfarrar]

It was polished by Rinzo Negishi via Usagiya

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/

 

Considering how thin skinned Hizen blades are it could have turned out a lot worse.

[w.y.chan]

It was polished by Rinzo Negishi via Usagiya

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/

 

Considering how thin skinned Hizen blades are it could have turned out a lot worse.

 

Peter, that is a good restoration job, is there any evidence of core still and blisters? Gunome midare such as this is less frequent amongst Tadayoshi, it looks like the style of Shodai Masahiro.

[pcfarrar]

Hi Wah, Judging from the pics it has a few patches of core coming through but no other problems. I'll have it in hand early next so I'll be able to post more then.

[w.y.chan]

Hi Peter,

On hindsight it is good thing that it is showing some core steel considering how much steel was loss and genuine Hizen swords have thin kawagane.

 

Looking at the style of hamon it looks quite like 1st Hizen Tadakuni more than Masahiro, maybe it was made on assistant to the 2nd Tadahiro?

[pcfarrar]

I was also told the style of the signature dates it to around 1642 if that helps.

[w.y.chan]

I am guessing the related families of the Hizen school supported the 2nd Tadahiro for much of if not throughout his career which probably attributed to the high number of swords with his name. I dont own Robertshawe's book but I look forward to getting hold of a copy one day.