heard from another sword list

[Bungo]

and I took the liberty to copy and paste.....................

 

" This has always been a problem. The NBTHK found so many problems with

earlier papers that they decided the old papers would not be honored

and the system would start all over again. This happened maybe 20

years ago and resulted in the current system. Currently, the Ministry

of culture in Japan forced the resignation of the NBTHK chairman

(last week), and is considering removing the NBTHK's connection to

the government along with its tax exempt status. This has been coming

out in major newspapers in Japan in the last few weeks. A large part

of this is in response to the number of unqualified blades being

papered as juyo.

I have been aware of this for a few years now as I am asked

sometimes to examine some Juyo blades for friends who were

considering buying them. Most of them should not have been juyo and

were not worth buying, especially at the prices being asked for juyo.

It is obvious something funny has been going on with regards to

papers, and even the saya gaki for a while now. I think we'll be

seeing a lot more in the news (if the Japanese news gets translated

and spread around to the sword collectors). Many juyo blades are on

the market in the US because no one will buy them in Japan at their

asking prices. Some of these juyo are unbelievably unqualified to be

juyo. I heard a comment in Japan recently that the buusiness of the

NBTHK is to hold Juyo shinsa as that is where the money is. I can go

on, but the situation is sad. I have never submitted a sword for

papers as I know what I have (thanks to many visits by Yoshindo and

other polishers), and that is enough. The NBTHK is overdue for some

kind of housecleaning, but overly severe measures by the Ministry of

Culture would be bad for swords too I'm afraid. "

 

anyone heard bout this in the land of the god's newspaper ?

 

Milt THE ronin

[Ichi]

Yo Ronin Milt,

 

Still keeping my big eyes open, but nothing coming up in the land of rising sun to backup that statement.

[paulb]

Milt,

this is a cause of major concern. Can you confirm the source of this information? i.e. forum and author?

I have heard a number of stories coming out of Japan but without knowing their origins it is difficult to guage the accurracy.

If they are accurrate I am afraid there could be considerable effect on collectors worldwide.

[Rich T]

is reportadley leon Kapp, and was reported on Nihonto Yahoo by Ted Slawski, there are numeous versions of this story going around, involving Tanobe, Goto and others.

 

I think it would be great if the NBTHK, or the NBTHK US released an official comment and sorted it out one way or the other. I have talked to Darcy in regards to this and he is trying to get them to do just that.

 

As one story involves law suites and I guess if there is truth to that, that may be why the silecnce.

 

Still, some word would be comforting to the many collectors of the world who have major investments in their love.

 

Rich

[paulb]

Thanks for that Rich,

I agree that the NBTHK needs to say aomething. So far the silence is deafening. and the longer they go without making a statement the greater the speculation and potential for damage.

You can feel the experts (often wrong but never in doubt) coming out of the woodwork to fuel the fire.

[Nobody]

The story in the article which Milt introduced is not correct, I think. There might be such rumors, but I do not know they are ture or not.

I recently read articles about NBTHK on Japanese major newspapers. I already lost the papers, but I found the same article on a web site of a newspaper yesterday. Maybe those articles are the source of the rumors.

According to the papers, there are some disagreement between Ministry of Culture and NBTHK. Ministry of Culture asked NBTHK not to receive Nihonto for Shinsa from officials of NBTHK or officials' family to keep the justice of the Shinsa. But NBTHK refused the requirement and they say that the restriction is a discrimination.

 

The following pages are temporally saved and will be deleted.

http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/00/tokuho/200 ... _000.shtml

 

http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/00/tokuho/200 ... _000.shtml

[Curran]

Nobody,

 

Thank you for posting those links. I read the first one with help of a translator program and could also translate enough of the rough spots to get the heart of the ideas. I can definitely see the roots of the rumors. The question is "how accurate is the article?", as news sources in the USA are ofen far behind other public sources for insight and accuracy.

 

Speaking from my own empirical observations, I've had concerns about the NBTHK for 3 years now, but nothing like this. I have seen swords go Juyo that I did not think go Juyo, but in the scheme of things Juyo is only a halfway point on a 5 step ladder valuation system. I thought Darcy was entirely right in his arguements about "statistical mining of the pool" and that as the best swords from the 1960s had long since Juyo'ed- the standard for Juyo would creep down a bit to meet the supply. So those that went Juyo in recent years that I would not have thought go Juyo are simply "low-end Juyo". There are $20,000 Juyo and then there are $200,000 Juyo.

After seeing a 3rd gen Nobukuni O-tanto with recent Juyo papers on a Japanese dealer's website, I was even considering submitting my practically identical one for a roll of the dice at a Juyo shinsa, hoping mine would squeak across the line to Juyo.

 

The article makes it seem the Agency for Cultural Affairs may be grinding an axe for the NBTHK. It sounds like there is more than some evidence of impropriety at the NBTHK, yet that some out there are trying to fan the smoke into flames. Given the importance of the sword in Japanese history and culture, I doubt the magnitude of scandal is so great that the NBTHK loses its tax-exempt status. How much is the Agency for Cultural Affairs just banging the drum to have their way? Will the politicians pull its teeth or encourage the Agency to bite? I doubt there is enough public support for the politicos to do that, so most likely we will see some sort of NBTHK sacrificial lamb if they cannot pin it all on the recently dead guys.

 

In a macro sense- I doubt the NBTHK Japan will come out with any direct statement for some time, until it is most politically advantageous to do so.

 

I know it has gotten overly trite in my ears, but the phrase "keep it simple" is good. Don't buy the damn papers. Buy the item. NBTHK papers are just an opinion. There is no financial guarantee there. I do believe in them, and I do paper many of my items for 3rd party credibility- though Hozon is usually good enough for my satisfaction.

Juyo is a much greater assurance than Hozon, but sooner or later you must develop your own confidence.

 

Nobody- thanks for the links.

 

Curran

[QuangD]

I have read this message in Yahoo forum. Now, it is a good time for those Juyo candidate to be submitted for paper since the deserved Juyo blades are gone. The selections is getting easier since there are not many left to be submitted for gold paper anymore. Hey maybe Hozon paper can be submitted for Juyo paper 10 to 15 years in the future and as well as Gendaito Sai-jo Saku status.

[David Flynn]

This is purely hearsay. I was told the reason so many " unworthy " swords were going Juyo, was something to do with the NBTHK asking for " Donations " for Juyo submissions.

David

[Darcy]

I will just add that much of this has been distorted and exaggerated as it passes from person to person. The NBTHK/AB will make a comment soon to ideally inform people and lay the more wild speculation to rest. The only comment that I will make is that some people have made their "reports" as a mix of editorializing, speculation, rumor mongering, and items taken from newspapers and then presented it in a matter of fact manner that makes it impossible for the reader to sort out which statements fall into which classification.

 

So I would just say to take it with a grain of salt until the AB comments.

 

About the Juyo Token, the last two shinsas have been particularly hard.

 

A lot of very great swords were discovered in the past two years, just the fittings museum collection alone put a large number of top rate swords into the pool and most of them passed Juyo and many Tokuju. Other blades are still being discovered in the USA, a Niji Kunitoshi that was found three years ago passed Juyo on the first try and Tokubetsu Juyo this year. So did a Chogi, two first try successes. So extremely top shelf swords keep popping up.

 

My Motoshige tanto was found in Japan only in 2005... this is a signed and dated Motoshige, there are only (off the top of my head) eight or nine dated works in this smith's repertoire.

 

The "skimming the cream" theory is mine. It goes like this: you have a set number of swords. Every year you take a portion of the best of them out of the pot. Every year then the quality of the pot goes down, and there is a hard lower limit to how low you can bring that quality before you can no longer draw any cream out.

 

That's a theory with no real specifics and doesn't say when you reach that point.

 

Here is the data: There are about 10,000 Juyo. There are about 4 million swords. This is 0.25%. About 250 are added to Juyo each year. In 120 years Juyo Token will be 1 in 100. Pulling an assumption out of my butt: at this point maybe there will be no new ones added, but all of us will also be long dead. I do not know what the true ratio of Juyo quality swords to lesser swords is, and I don't know if anyone does without a really substantive study and survey. As long as there are Japanese families 50 years after the requirement to register swords popping up and saying, "Well this has been in the closet for 400 years maybe we should get it registered" and as long as there are swords still unknown in the USA, the pot will have new cream put in.

 

On strength, I know I have submitted some great stuff in the past few years, that I thought stood a good chance for Juyo or Tokuju and I got used to failure. If it were easy to get, I'd have gotten it.

 

When things pass or fail, I think as well the first step should be an inquisitive "what can I learn from this to extend my knowledge" instead of a "OMG the NBTHK is so wrong." Some people take the stance that they know better than the shinsa judges. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but don't make any assumptions that anyone choosing to armchair quarterback on these issues is uniformly correct with their judgments.

[Bungo]

cut und paste from other sword message board..............

 

 

The information below was found by a friend of mine.

 

Three directors, including the Chairman, who were due to retire soon, have been resigned by the NBTHK on full pay until their retirement date. Two of these were retired policemen.

The Chairman has been replaced by Mr Sasa.

The problem was that the Bunka-Cho had given a directive that the NBTHK panel should not put their own swords, nor those owned by their relatives, up for examination. The NBTHK rebelled against this, but Mr Goto, the two policemen and two others - that is five out of fourteen directors - agreed with the Bunka-Cho code.

The dismissed three are appealing that their contract should not be ended since it was somehow arranged between the Police Department and the NBTHK. There are legal mutterings.

It was shown by the previous Chairman Goto, that between 2001 when the Bunka-Cho directive was announced , and today, there have been 515 instances of that directive having been contravened.

Tokyo Shimbun.

 

The above was published on the Chunichi WEB Press in Japanese on 11 September, and taken from the Tokyo Shimbun report of 3 September.

[Stephen]

long after were dead and gone and all the koto are no more to be Juyo found, shinto and shinshinto even gendai will make Juyo...IMHO

[QuangD]

long after were dead and gone and all the koto are no more to be Juyo found, shinto and shinshinto even gendai will make Juyo...IMHO

 

Stephen,

 

"hold on" gendaito swords for another 20 years or so.....then it will be Juyo candidate for sure....There are no questions about the mei...since there are no gimei..... :lol: :lol:

 

 

Maybe one day, you can use Gendaito Juyo for cutting tree.....

[David Flynn]

I've seen three Gimei Ichihara Nagamitsus' on Ebay.

worry

David

[QuangD]

I've seen three Gimei Ichihara Nagamitsus' on Ebay.

worry

David

 

Hi David,

 

I spoke with you before. Who would gimei "Ichihara Nagamitsu"? I found that is very odd. I would gimei "Gassan Sadakatsu". I think there are variation of "Nagamitsu" signatures.

[David Flynn]

Quang. I agree it's silly, But the ones I saw were advertised as him.

I have a couple, plus a lot of oshigata. I think it may be done to mumei blades. Nagamistus have risen dramaticaly in price, over the last couple of years.

David

[QuangD]

Quang. I agree it's silly, But the ones I saw were advertised as him.

I have a couple, plus a lot of oshigata. I think it may be done to mumei blades. Nagamistus have risen dramaticaly in price, over the last couple of years.

David

 

Hi David,

 

Someone must give Gendaito mumei to do it. However, the consistency of the work Nagamitsu and Emura are very close. So you can easy tell if it made by one of those two smiths. The price of Yasukuni smiths are price are increasing more than average gendaito smiths. It definitely made sense to gimei those in modern days.

[David Flynn]

Quan, one of the ones I saw, was suguha. Another one was a wakizashi with gunome chogi. Wak was listed three times before it sold.

David