Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

[Ford Hallam]

 

The ever helpful Mike Yamasaki sent me this fine example of a Miyamoto Musashi attributed tsuba. Classic namako form in copper.

 

[runagmc]

And the funny thing is, the one you made is nicer. Now if you could only match his notoriety and fame...

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers :D ...I'm working on it

[cabowen]

 

The ever helpful Mike Yamasaki sent me this fine example of a Miyamoto Musashi attributed tsuba. Classic namako form in copper.

 

[attachment=0]musashi-webfull.jpg[/attachment]

 

He also used a wooden sword..... :lol:

[Ford Hallam]

:lol:

[Baka Gaijin]

Chris, that joke was Oar-ful.........

 

 

Cheers

[raiden]

He also used a wooden sword.....

 

with no tsuba i believe.......

[raiden]

and he won.......

back to work, getting busy gotta update the site and get ready for chicago

[raiden]

since we are talking about musashi, from my sons collection that I gave him.

[kusunokimasahige]

Attributed to.

 

KM

[Brian]

Yes....three times.

And at the level Mike and Cyrus deal in, I would have little doubt it is what it says it is, or is safe to assume so.

 

Brian.

[kusunokimasahige]

Sorry Brian, occupational disability here... A historian wants proof.

 

However, I do believe and admit that the knowledge of the people doing the attribution is vastly if not

immensely greater than the knowledge I myself have or even could attain on these matters.

 

The items sure are beautiful by themselves and if really made by Miyamoto Musashi they are historically of great importance.

 

KM

[Pete Klein]

I was privileged to see and study these in hand and they are sublime. I don't say that very often.

[Ford Hallam]

Hmmm....pieces of 'the true cross' ...is it permissible to express doubt? by which I mean all attributions of metalwork supposedly by Musashi.

[Ford Hallam]

Some more works attributed to Musashi.

 

This one supposedly 'den'...?

 

This one held by the Kumamoto Prefectural museum

 

 

What has always bothered me about his supposed metalworking sideline was when he's supposed to have found the time.

 

The most authoritative account of his life is probably 'Miyamoto Musashi - His life and writings' by Kenji Tokitsu.

 

There are a few other worth reading but Tokitsu provides far more detail and background than the other works, in my opinion. His book is also very well illustrated with many of Musashi's painting and calligraphies. That he was a very credible painter and calligrapher is undeniable and there is no need in this respect for attributions as his works are signed and at least one bears his personal seal. Artistically speaking they all share a very distinct character.

 

We learn, from Tokitsu's book, that Musashi was an extremely proud man and was very concerned with how he was regarded by others in terms of status. The various issues surrounding his employment make all of this plain. His attainments in the martial arts were not always as highly regarded as he would have liked and he struggled to find a suitably elevated position as an official retainer.

 

From Tokitsu's;

 

"Three years after the Shimabara insurrection was crushed, Musashi left Ogasawara to go to the fief of Hosokawa in Higo, where he passed the last five years of his life." pp119

 

on pp124 a quote from the Tanji Hokin hikki tells the following;

 

"Musashi had a taste for sculpture and the art of casting metals He also made a great number of bokuto."

 

But no mention of calligraphy or painting, both arts we know for certain he did practice.

 

Musashi arrived in Kumamoto, Higo, in the first month of 1640. He retired to the cave at Reigando in 1643 and died on the 19th of the 5th month 1645.

 

Also quoted by Tokitsu is the following passage from the "Anecdotes about the Deceased Master" (Musashi being the master in point)

"The master fell sick after arriving in Higo. Especially from the beginning of 1645"

 

It seem therefore improbable to me that this, already ailing, man produced all the paintings and calligraphies (and bear in mind no-one simply starts painting and produces fuly fledged art works from day one...not even a sword saint ) AND an impressive array of tsuba and other fittings in metal....all in less than 3 years.

[cabowen]

Do you believe he made any kodogu?

[kusunokimasahige]

Ford, you ask if it is permissible to express doubt.

 

I must say yes, it is. We see attributions in art a lot, in paintings, with tsuba, Nihonto (mumei and even Gimei or Kindai Gimei), yari and a lot of other artifacts.

 

Since I am trained in the "art" of history i must ask for proof. Without proof everything is a possibility, but not much more than that. In the field of my studies, ancient history, it is even more important not to make any definite statements about anything written, found or even about things which supposedly happened according to the ancient sources.

Source criticism always has to be one of the first things you need to establish.

 

With artifacts found through archaeology that can consist of discerning whether a find could be a votive offering or could as well have been just lost, misplaced or discarded. In my line of work, context matters more than the artifact as such.

 

So yes, when it comes to attributions I generally will tend to be sceptical. This even goes as far as an attribution of a mumei sword at Shinsa.

 

Nevertheless, if enough style aspects and metalworking aspects point in the direction of a certain smith, i can go along that way of reasoning up to the point that i can agree with or be happy about the attribution, but no further than that.

 

For me proof consists out of other things and factors which use a totally different manner of reasoning.

 

KM

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Chris, sorry, I've edited my previous post to add some details that explain my scepticism.

 

Personally, no, I can't see any connection between all the various pieces he's supposed to have made, either from a purely technical point of view or, if we allow for the possibility such an amateur might be able to express something of their own character in metal (which I very much doubt), any sort of aesthetic relationship.

 

I used to, long ago when every text from Japan was gospel, think that at least one of the 2 attributed to him by Sasano was genuine. I read somewhere that it was supposed to have been handed down in the family of one of his disciples, Terao Magonojo. It is, in my opinion, the most accomplished of all the attributed 'Musashi tsuba'...and I now think it to be the work of one of the the other Higo masters, Hirata Hikozo I being my feeling.

 

Incidentally, we see Shoami examples of the namako tsuba design that pre-date Musashi so he cannot be credited with the form.

 

And he was very unlikely to have even met Hirata Hikozo I as he died 11 years before Musashi reached Kumamoto in 1640.

 

Possible contemporaries might have been Hayashi Matashichi, Nishigaki Kanshiro, Shimizu Jingu I or Hirata Hikozo II. All of these men about 20 or more years younger than Musashi. Would he humble himself to study metalwork, a dirty job, under such younger men?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Henk,

 

I fully agree with your professional view...my question was slightly rhetorical. I'm also very well aware that by voicing doubt I will not be doing myself any favours :? but I'm afraid I'm really not very good at being a "believer"

[cabowen]

We learn, from Tokitsu's book, that Musashi was an extremely proud man and was very concerned with how he was regarded by others in terms of status. The various issues surrounding his employment make all of this plain. His attainments in the martial arts were not always as highly regarded as he would have liked and he struggled to find a suitably elevated position as an official retainer.

 

 

Perhaps a bath once in a while would have helped?

 

I can't count how many swords I have seen in Japan that claim to have been owned or used by Musashi over the years....If they were all the real deal, he would have owned more swords than the Tokugawa.....

[Pete Klein]

Well now -- isn't that special? I suppose now that Gingemma and Bastinda have spoken we can go back to frying cruellers???

[cabowen]

Well now -- isn't that special? I suppose now that Gingemma and Bastinda have spoken we can go back to frying cruellers???

 

Do they have those in Kansas?

[John A Stuart]

Gingemma and Bastinda :lol: :lol: Pete you kill me. I am afraid lately we are not in Kansas anymore, eh? Toto. Please guys, it is what it is. John

[sanjuro]

I had to have a wry smile at the description in the Musashi.Sasano example. Whether or not Musashi himself made it is one thing, but the assumption that he became less harsh and cruel as he aged has no foundation in fact but simply reflects the romantic imaginings of the writer. Musashi won some sixty odd duels in his life, many of those vanquished he carved up like dog meat. He butchered an entire branch of the Yoshioka clan, including a 13 year old boy if I remember correctly. This is not a man that would get soft and mushy in his later years. (From Musashi to Mushysashi in a few years?)

Having said that, It has become very difficult to seperate Musashi the man from Musashi the legend. He occupies a place in history similar to that of Amakuni. Much is written but considerably less is historically verifiable concerning the nature of the man himself. If his acts alone are to speak for him then he would have been a brutal and cruel man even in the context of his fairly brutal time and calling. None of this however takes away from the fact that he must have been an awesome swordsman.

[raiden]

well, I rather my son have the menuki, as I believe they are an important part of Japanese history and should be past on down the line, and oh by the way if whoever it was that stated that he is skeptical of mumei blades has a Masamune (unsigned of course but "attributed" please send it my way!)

By the way, I have a great respect and faith in the opinion of the people that did the attributions. They all have great backgrounds, and are very knowledgable people. I believe that one has to have such resources to learn properly, it's all about who you know and respect when it comes to opinions. For me the proof that is needed, is who was who's teacher, and how good was the student......I know who my teachers were/are......enough for me on this site subject, I think one day we will do a study on Musashi's kodogu that some don't believe he made.

[Alan Morton]

Hi guys

I know people who have visited sword smiths and tsubako and have taken

 

part in hammering and turning pieces in the forge and then consider that

 

they took part in making of the article that was made ,which they usually

 

own now, could this be the case with famous personages such as Musashi

 

visiting well known artisans of the time ?

 

Alan

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all

 

Ford said:

 

"It seem therefore improbable to me that this, already ailing, man produced all the paintings and calligraphies (and bear in mind no-one simply starts painting and produces fuly fledged art works from day one...not even a sword saint ) AND an impressive array of tsuba and other fittings in metal....all in less than 3 years."

 

Consider this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharaku

 

Cheers

[Ford Hallam]

Rigorous reasoning from inapplicable assumptions yields the world's most durable nonsense.

 

Any attribution of a work of art or craft can only be made based on comparisons to other known genuine pieces.

 

A group of works all attributed to the same individual needs to exhibit at least some relationship in terms of style, workmanship and aesthetic.

 

These requirements are not bypassed by means of mystical 'revealed knowledge' available to only a select few in the right lineage.

 

The validity of any opinion rests on the evidence that is presented to support it, not unsubstantiated claims to higher, more learned authorities.

 

Convoluted speculations as to how Musashi might have been able to produce metalwork are irrelevant until we can reasonably show that in fact he did. It's putting the cart before the horse.

[sanjuro]

Isnt it exciting? Just to think that in four hundred or so years there might be a group of people having this same discussion about Ford Hallam's body of work!!!!!!!!!

 

And to add insult to injury some of his genuine works may well be prounced gimei by a shinsa panel!

[Ford Hallam]

I would hope, as did the potter Shoji Hamada when asked why he didn't sign his work, in the future my poorer work would be attributed to a 'follower' or be judged a fake while better work be credited to me

 

And that's not taking into account all the Musashi versions I've made.... I only hope mine aren't attributed to him and I get lumped with his dodgy bits