$1700 down the drain!!

[estcrh]

Someone just bought an expensive fake, if in doubt ask someone.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 646wt_1037

[Justin Grant]

Ouch!

[drbvac]

Is that not the famous "peckerhead" menpo

[kusunokimasahige]

Well, the seller states it was Meiji, and he put the date around 1850, which is not likely.

 

To me it looks later.

 

The Ori-Kugi are round and not square.

I miss odome, though they were not always used.

There is no Ase Nagashi no ana.

 

The Urushi paint job looks like a beginners one.

 

It looks to me like a marriage.

 

So we see again that at auctions, sometimes prices can soar, because there are one or two

idiots who must have it, whatever the price....

 

KM

[Brian]

To make this educational for us sword guys who know nothing about armour etc..how about some points to look out for and the indicators that prove it is modern?

C'mon...teach us, don't just point out a bad deal.

 

Brian

[Justin Grant]

Ill post some of my thoughts. Your mileage may very.

 

The nose piece was added to an authentic menpo. The wrinkles on the menpo do not line up with the nose, something of this quality would have had this attention applied. The lacing on the throat guard is not what one would expect, it looks simple and unadorned. I also suspect that the guard may not even be original to the menpo.

The gold was is in my opinion poorly applied to indicate age.

 

I am sure I missed a bunch but this is my early assessment ny looking on my phone.

 

Jg

[estcrh]

To make this educational for us sword guys who know nothing about armour etc..how about some points to look out for and the indicators that prove it is modern?

C'mon...teach us, don't just point out a bad deal.

 

Brian

Brian, you are quite right, unfortunately it is often very hard when just looking at pictures online to see whether an armor item is completely authentic or put together to look good for a sale. Completely modern items are much easier to spot unless someone takes the time to try to make them look old as in the case of this menpo. Buying from a reliable dealer is the best way to ensure you get what you pay for but unfortunately most dealers do not sell the lower cost items as there is not enough profit in them to stay in business, they must sell higher quality items. So were does that leave people who want to buy samurai armor but can not afford to spend $5000 on a kabuto or $2500 on a menpo? As in nihonto you could say "buy books and study" but there are not the same resources for armor as for nihonto.

[estcrh]

Ill post some of my thoughts. Your mileage may very.

 

The nose piece was added to an authentic menpo.

Justin, I believe that the body of the menpo is modern, my reason for this is the ori-kugi which are the hooks that some menpo have for securing the chin cord of the kabuto. On all the authentic menpo I have seen the ori-kugi have a 90 degree angle and are never rounded as in the menpo in question. On menpo that have ori-kugi this one thing is a sure give away that a menpo is not authentic as far as I know. Then there are those teeth!

 

Here is an authentic menpo showing the ori-kugi with a 90 degree bend.

This ori-kugi is rounded.

 

Vampire menpo.

[IanB]

Gents, I reply to Brian's request for things to look out for here are a few pointers:

1. With masks, always look at the inside if you can. A real mask was heavily 'filled' and smoothed out so that it didn't rub the skin. Modern fakers take short cuts and don't bother. You can often see the separate 'teeth plate' riveted on, or the ends of the riveted hooks showing inside. On a real mask it should all blend into one smooth interior.

2. There are plenty of old masks about that have lost their noses that form a base from which to create a fake. Look at how the line of the nose of this example fails to blend in with the top edge of the mask - the upper edge of the nosepiece meets the upper edge of the mask proper at an angle rather than flowing into each other.

3. The hooks on the cheeks of many real masks, but not all, actually sit on a washer to distribute the stresses since the metal is quite thin on the cheeks. Same with any studs on the chin. They should also be properly shaped rather than knocked up out of a bent nail.

4. Be suspicious of tengu masks. Tengu nosepieces are far easier to make than regular noses. Making a regular nose is a very skilled job requiring expertise in repousse to get the relief of the nose above the plane of the upper lip. Some real noses that are lacquered have the septum between the nostrils formed as a tab that is bent down and riveted to the lip, but they are still well shaped and when lacquered this is hidden. A tengu nose is more of a simple folding job with bulges on each side since there is no 'base' in it.

5. Look at the tare / yodarekake on this one. The rims around the upper edges of the plates are dreadful. They should be neat, smooth and in proportion to the size of the plates, not a series of thick blobs.

6. Finally look at the ears on this one. They are very badly shaped, especially at the top and back edge. Real masks have well shaped and hammered ears with subtle curves, not flat ugly flaps riveted to the back edge.

Hope that makes sense.

Ian Bottomley

[Brian]

Exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Thanks Ian!

 

Brian

[Justin Grant]

Hi Eric,

 

I did not see the teeth on the small phone screen, just the overall look. Ian has already outlined this, but I wanted to make some comments.

 

The hooks on the mask, while most real are 90 degree, I have a menpo that I got from Trevor that are rounded and don't have the washers. It is also devoid of ears, so my initial thought was that someone took a relic and added features to get what we have now.

 

Point it, the tells were there for the most of us that have a basic understanding of what to look for. For the new collector, this Mengu was the real deal, and the maker knew who he or she was after. I don't think the intent was to try to pass this off to an educated collector. The red monkey face kabuto running the web is more for that crowd. Still has many tells, but it requires a higher degree of education to understand what to look for.

 

Thanks for the good topic!

 

Justin

[estcrh]

 

The hooks on the mask, while most real are 90 degree, I have a menpo that I got from Trevor that are rounded and don't have the washers. It is also devoid of ears,

Justin, got any pictures.

[Justin Grant]

I'll dig it out. It was a tattered piece that was headed for the scrap bin, it is a true relic! :D