yoroi-doshi Aikuchi help

[edzo]

Dear Members,

I Am wondering if anyone has an opinion (or corrections), on this mumei yoroi-doshi blade that is 28.5cm long, the nagasa is 19.2cm, kasane at habaki is 6mm, musori, hirazukuri with iori hikushi mune. I am thinking shinto and have no idea of the school. I have also included a pic of the koshirae. Was wondering about the age. Any input or discussion is welcome. Thanks, ED

[Marius]

Ed,

 

have you got better pictures? These scans are simply not enough to say something about the blade...

[runagmc]

From what I've read, a tanto is refered to as a yoroi-doshi when it was made with an unusually thick kasane for piercing armor. I would think this would be just a tanto. It's hard to say about age, but I think shinto is a good possiblity. Gonome patterns like this are seen often on Bungo and some Mino smiths. It's just a guess, but mabey a good jumping off point.

[edzo]

Dear Mariusz,

Thanks for your inquiry, Would you like me to enlarge or concentrate on specific areas? What is your pleasure? Ed

[Marius]

Ed,

 

we have the sugata, which tels us something. We need the hamon, boshi, hada. That requires a lot of setting up work and good knowledge of photography, plus a decent camera. Not sure if it all that effort is worthwhile?

[edzo]

Dear Adam,

Thank you for your participation and input. Two things that stand out to me is that with blade in hand it evokes an immediate sense of wieght and strength (durability and confidence). The second thing is a wider than normal kasane and a significant turn-back (tempering), of the boshi on the mune side. I'm in a learning mode and by no means an expert at this. In any event, I'm interested and appreciate anything you may have to say. Thanks,Ed

[edzo]

Dear Mariusz,

I have the gear but as you know it needs to be staged. I plan on doing this please be patient. I may try to experiment with my scanner to capture the characteristics you are looking for. The only thing I will likely have a problem with is the hada. I have spent hours studying the blade and am concluding it might be masame with slight undulation but difficult to be sure. An quick look suggests muji but in small amount in certian areas appear to exhibit it. Thanks,Ed

[edzo]

Hi Mariusz,

 

Is this any better? I'm playing w/scanner. Ed

[Kai-Gunto]

Nice aikuchi.

[runagmc]

6mm kasane is slightly above average, but at almost 30 cm I wouldn't consider it a yoroidoshi. They are often 1cm kasane or more, and shorter... but like alot of nihonto related terms, yoroidoshi is not strictly defined so it's open to interpretation. Also yoroidoshi, or armor piercer, seems to be commonly used as a sales pitch because it sounds cool. Anyway, it's a nice tanto, and I like the aiguchi koshirea.

 

Edit: I just re-read your post and saw that the nagasa is actually only 19cm (my mistake), so mabey it's fair to call it an armor piercer after all, I don't know

[edzo]

Dear Adam, Thanks again, the file marks are katte sagari, i'm going to look at the blade characteristics from the above suggested areas. Ed

[sanjuro]

Hi Edward.

 

Not wishing to be a wet blanket here, but in reality I think this can only be classified as an aikuchi. Yoroi toshi belong to an earlier age than shinto and whilst this is a fairly thick by comparison blade there is little if anything to identify it as a yoroi toshi blade. On the upside, its appears to be a good blade for an aikuchi and the koshirae looks to be original. It is on first impression, a nice clean shinto example.

By way of compensation, yoroi toshi are not common to the shinto era, whereas aikuchi are far more common. Older yoroi toshi are thicker and have a much longer turnback of the ha, sometimes as long as 2inches, and in most cases have a distinctive fully tempered (ichi mai) boshi of either shobu zukuri or even moroha zukuri style. Hira zukuri is not unkown but would definitely be in the minority as the point would be somewhat weaker than the aforementioned types for stabbing through armour.

[edzo]

Dear Kieth, thank you for the clarification and your participation. What you have explained including the period of the blade makes perfect sense. Thank you very much. Ed.

[cabowen]

Usually it is the thickness that determines whether or not a tanto can be classified as a yoroi-doshi. You have not provided photos which show the kasane, or thickness, so we can not correctly comment. Typically a yoroi-doshi is about twice the usual thickness and I have seen them close to 1/2" in thickness....The are also usually shorter, narrower and "pointier" than a normal blade, as well. Yours appears to be short and narrow so if it is indeed much thicker than a typical blade of this size, it may be a yoroi-doshi.

 

Yoroi-doshi were most commonly made in late koto, but they were also made later in both Shinto and Shinshinto periods. Most I have seen have been hira-zukuri. I do not recall ever seeing one made in anything but hira-zukuri and would be interested in seeing an example.

[edzo]

Hi Chris, regarding this blade the kasane is 6mm in front of the habaki. Ed

[cabowen]

That is just under 1/4" which I would not consider thick enough to qualify as a yoroi-doshi....

[Brian]

Most yoroi-doshi I have seen are at least 1cm thick at the habaki. Very obviously made for their purpose.

 

Brian

[edzo]

Thanks to both chris and Brian on on board with that. thanks Ed

[runagmc]

I have seen other blades of this size recently being sold as yoroidoshi, but as I said before, it's a marketing thing. Unfortunatly it causes some confusion.

 

What do you guys think about a moroha zukuri tanto like this... could it be labeled as a yoroidoshi,

[Jean]

No, I'll say rather a can opener a moroha tanto is a moroha tanto

 

Yoroi doshi is a one edge tanto with a moto kasane equal or superior to 1 cm.

[runagmc]

Jean, do you have a reputable source for this definition... or are you going on your own personal opinion of what a yoroidoshi is. I basically agree with your definition from what I've seen... I'm just wondering if you have found references that define a yoroidoshi as needing to be hira zukuri and a minimum of 1cm, because I've never seen a reference where it was so strictly defined.

[Eric H]

  runagmc said:

I'm just wondering if you have found references that define a yoroidoshi as needing to be hira zukuri and a minimum of 1cm, because I've never seen a reference where it was so strictly defined.

 

Jean‘s comment goes to the point. Functionality and robustness are the decisive factors and this is given by the overall structure of the blade. I have never read about a moroha tanto defined as an armour piercer.

 

I‘d like to felicitate Jean to his (60's) anniversary sometime this month.

 

Happy Birthday, Jean!... :D

 

Eric

[Marius]

  runagmc said:

Jean, do you have a reputable source for this definition... or are you going on your own personal opinion of what a yoroidoshi is. I basically agree with your definition from what I've seen... I'm just wondering if you have found references that define a yoroidoshi as needing to be hira zukuri and a minimum of 1cm, because I've never seen a reference where it was so strictly defined.

 

 

I think we are making the error of categorizing a bit too much. What is a tanto? It is a relatively new name for a short sword. It used to be called koshigatana. What are the five schools (Gokaden) - a construct by Honami (or Fujishiro, I cannot recall who), in order to facilitate categorization. It is possible that in order to have a cut-off in this category, some scholar has taken 1 cm, but is it so important?

[Jean]

Thanks Eric, It was yesterday :D

 

Mariuszk,

 

Why the 1cm?

 

First because, of all the ones I have seen (in hand) none had lesser motokasane.

 

Second, because the blade must be very thick, stout, not too large (less surface)to penetrate smoothly an armour, without bending or snapping and not too long (about 20/22cm)

 

A classical Tanto has between 0,4 to 0,6/0,7 moto kasane, the yoroi-doshi moto kasane at the hamachi can be up to 1,25 cm thick which is a characteristic of the yoroi doshi style of tanto. The extra thickness at the spine of the blade identifies the yoroi doshi from a standard tanto blade.

 

A moroha tsukuri could be a yoroi doshi provided that its motokasane is thick enough but you will seldom encounter one because not practical. Not sure it even exxists.

 

The way to hold a tanto and a yoroi doshi is not the same.

[Eric H]

  mariuszk said:

I think we are making the error of categorizing a bit too much. What is a tanto? It is a relatively new name for a short sword. It used to be called koshigatana. What are the five schools (Gokaden) - a construct by Honami (or Fujishiro, I cannot recall who), in order to facilitate categorization.

 

Classification of Nihonto by length was established in Edo period:

 

Tanto - to be shorter than 1 shaku (30.3 cm)

 

Wakizashi - to be from 1 shaku to 1 shaku 9 sun 9 bu (60.30 cm)

 

ko-wakizashi- to be from 1 shaku up to 1 shaku 4 sun 9 bu (45.15 cm)

chu-wakizashi - to be from 1 shaku 5 sun to 1 shaku 7 sun 9 bu (54.24 cm)

o-wakizashi - to be from 1 shaku 8 sun up to 1 shaku 9 sun 9 bu (60.30 cm)

 

However I have seen swords with length 60.5 cm classified as Wakizashi.

 

Katana - to be 2 shaku (60.6 cm) and longer

 

The Gokaden method of kantei was devised by Hon‘ami Koson and his teacher Hon‘ami Ringa between the end of the Meiji period and the beginning of the Taisho period. Later Koson popularized the system by publishing it and introducing it at sword meetings all over Japan.

 

Eric

[Mark Green]

My guess would be Shin-shinto.

I have a couple of tanto with near exact same shape, signed by early-mid 19c smiths. very thick much like this, and not looking like they have been used much, as they were likely not.

 

You see very few Shinto period tanto, as they fell from use. In Shinshinto times they made a big comeback.

It sure doesn't look koto to me.

 

To me, the fittings look to have much more Sori, then this tanto. But, they look nice.

Not a yoroi doshi. imho Just a tanto

 

Mark G

[edzo]

Thank you Mark Jean, Eric and mariusz for all you help, Have a great weekend! Ed

[Eric H]

AOI ART AUCTION

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auct ... 1213703271

 

a very attractive Yoroi doshi Tanto by Suishinshi Masatsugu with a very interesting hamon in Aikuchi Toppei-koshirae.

 

Nagasa 21.8 cm - Kasane 0.72 cm

 

Eric

[Jean]

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auct ... 1213703271

 

This one has a kasane of 0,68 and a nagasa of 21,2cm. It is qualified as thick tanto ... The difference between these tanto is 0,04 cm.

[edzo]

Dear Jean, Thanks for participating and that link, I have a tanto with the kiyomitsu mei i am researching. Do you have an opinion or thoughts as to the age or style of the koshirae? Thanks Ed