markturner Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Hi, I have no idea how, but I appear to have lost the papers for one of my swords, which i took to the To-ken society meeting on Thursday. I had zipped them into the sword bag, with my gloves, the sword and a polishing cloth. When I opened the bag, there were no papers inside. I can only assume that they somehow came out of the bag on the tube journey, although the bag was tightly zipped shut so....anyway, they are nowhere to be found, and while efforts continue to find them, I am wondering how easy or not it will be to get a replacement set, without the sword having to go back to Japan? I cant believe this, but thats the situation I am in. Thanks, Mark Quote
paulb Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Hi Mark, Sorry to hear about your papers. It will depend who issued them and what level they are. If i remember correctly the NBTHK will issue a confirmation ceritificate (not the same as the original) for Juyo and above if the origianls are lost. I do not think they necessarily maintain records or copies of lesser papers. If that is the case the only option would be to re-submit it. I am sure those with greater experience of the process can advise more accurately. Good luck Paul Quote
markturner Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Hi Paul, they are NBTHK Tokubetsu hozon. thx, Mark Quote
Eric H Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 paulb said: It will depend who issued them and what level they are As far as I know a lost Juyo origami can be replaced on request with a Juyo Shitei Shomeisho paper... but this is not possible for lesser level papers. Eric Quote
cabowen Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 The NBTHK will not replace TH papers. You will have to resubmit. Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Mark, sorry for your troubles. In general it's best to make photo copies for meetings and such, and leave the original at home. Quote
tony edmunds Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 PM sent And good luck with the papers Tony Quote
Surfson Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Not that it will make you feel better, but I've heard tell of a collector who had several hundred sets of papers in a large shopping bag and a new cleaning lady threw them out. Ouch! Quote
markturner Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Jeez, that's a real pain. I have been sending myself crazy trying to work out what happened to them today.....Thanks for the advice and the sentiment, I keep you all posted, rgds, Mark Quote
Soten_Fan Posted February 26, 2012 Report Posted February 26, 2012 Sorry to hear that Mark... Did you call Don? Maybe you lef them in the shop. I don't think you lost them in the tube cause they are a big piece of paper and one of us would have noticed. Most likely it happened whe you removed the swords from the bag in the meeting because if you rember we were in a hurry. Call Clive and ask him if anyone found any orphan papers. Do you (or the Japanese dealer) have photos or photocopies of the papers? Quote
markturner Posted February 26, 2012 Author Report Posted February 26, 2012 Hi Dimitri, yes did, he has not found them. They were missing before we left Dons, that's where I noticed they were not in the bag. At that point I assumed they had been left at home, so was not unduly worried. Only when I got home and established that they were not there either that I started sweating...!! Thanks for the advice Tony, I kinda did that and I am certain that they went in the bag at my house. I am just hoping that they are there amongst the stuff at Dons, which is easy to lose something in..! If not, its an expensive mystery...Cheers, Mark Quote
Jean Posted February 26, 2012 Report Posted February 26, 2012 BTW, I'll let you guess why there are so many juyo with lost papers on Aoi Art websie... Quote
Kronos Posted February 27, 2012 Report Posted February 27, 2012 Jean said: BTW, I'll let you guess why there are so many juyo with lost papers on Aoi Art websie... Would that be because they are Suriage or another change since the papers were issued? Quote
Jean Posted February 27, 2012 Report Posted February 27, 2012 The reason is that in Japan, a juyo sword is much devaluated if it has not the original papers, that is why they are found on Aoi Art. Tsuruta san has a lot of connexion with the West and western people don't mind having Juyo Shitei Shomeisho papers instead of Juyo papers You will notice it is the only web site proposing this kind of Juyo Quote
Kronos Posted February 27, 2012 Report Posted February 27, 2012 Ah ok, that makes alot more sense now, I always think of more nefarious reasons it seems :D It strikes me as odd however that the Japanese would think this way when they have easier access to the Juyo Token Nado Zufu etc. One would think it would be westerners that "buy papers" instead of swords, not the other way around. Quote
markturner Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Posted March 2, 2012 Great news for my sanity!!! I found the papers today, they were, as I suspected, in Dons shop, but despite him looking twice, they remained lost. So today I went down and we looked together. On the second sweep, they were found, down behind a cupboard, where they had obviously fallen when the bag was opened, without me noticing. I will now studiously follow advice, photocopy them and stash them away safely...... Regards, Mark Quote
paulb Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 that is great news, well done Mark. Tell Don to tidy his shop up Quote
watsonmil Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Dear Mark, That is WONDERFUL news, ... I once TRIED to lose a son, .... sadly he kept turning up, and keeps turning up ! ... Ron Watson Quote
Geraint Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Dear Ron. I share your pain, perhaps you should take him on a trip to Don's shop? I can imagine your relief Mark, glad they turned up safe and sound. Quote
Soten_Fan Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Great news!! Anyone who's been to Don's shop knows that finding a lost piece of paper is not a straightforward task.. :lol: :lol: Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Good to hear the papers were found ! Now on another note, when you lose papers you have to resubmit. A lot if not all of the papers are numbered. But do the Shinsa organisations have their own archive of attested swords ? If so, is the archive a closed or an open one ? It seems to me that not having an archive of swords in existence would be a bit strange. KM Quote
Jean Posted March 3, 2012 Report Posted March 3, 2012 The answer has already been provided HJ. If they had archives of every piece of iron submitted, why has someone to resubmit in case of lost papers for H and TH and why different attribution often on koto O suriage blades resubmitted? Otherwise for Yushu and Juyo blades archives exist and don't you try to resubmit a juyo o suriage blade to juyo shinsa in order to get a better school appraisal, they are very good at detecting it. Quote
cabowen Posted March 3, 2012 Report Posted March 3, 2012 The NBTHK keeps records of blades submitted, not just those that have passed. There are a variety of reasons I can think of for them not reissuing lost papers, even though they could if they wished.... Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 3, 2012 Report Posted March 3, 2012 Edited due to misreading a previous post. Thanx Chris for pointing that out KM Quote
cabowen Posted March 3, 2012 Report Posted March 3, 2012 Um, I just wrote that they do keep records..... Quote
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