chrstphr Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 Hi, I have a koto tachi. I have had it a number of years and still enjoy looking at it. It is a lovely blade with a lot of activity for me to learn on. It has hozon papers and ok koshirae. I have been told it dates from 1400-1450, 1500 to 1550 and 1475-1500. I would like to get some opinions here as to a closer date than 150 years if possible. I think 1500 to 1550 is alittle late given the length and shape of the blade, but i think 1400-1450 is a little early given the size of the tip. It was too long to be a uchigatana as they werent longer than 70cm and this is has been shortened and is 66.6cm. And by mid 1500s they were making katanas that were shorter with a one handed grip and the curve on the blade was moving up higher towards the tip. here are some specs, im not sure what measurements might be needed. munemachi to kissaki 66.6cm width 3.0 cm thickness at machi 6.0mm mumei, sori is 1.6 but the blade has been shortened. 3 mekugi-ana blade is shinogi tsukuri, with chu kissaki ( Kaen) with bohi Gunome Hamon with Ko Nie Deki, Yo and Sunigashi Jihada, itame Hada, Chikei, yubashiri, Ji nie and utsuri. any opinions welcome to dates, and hope my photos are decent enough to see anything. http://www.photobucket.com/chrissword Chris Quote
Grey Doffin Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Hi Chris, You left out the one picture that would be most helpful: the whole blade bare of any fittings side on, so we can see the true shape. Grey Quote
runagmc Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Nice koto in very good condition It would help if you took a picture of the whole paper... or at least told us the attribution... Just for fun, and to kick-start some discussion, I'll guess Naoe Shizu... although, I have to say I can't tell much from those pics... Quote
chrstphr Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 Hi, thanks for commenting. I left off the total papers and attribution on purpose. I was hoping some would guess as well the school on the papers and hoped that not having the said the school would leave some fun debate on the sword and the age. i did have a side on whole blade view on photobucket, but here is another photo of the entire blade. These two photos not as detailed of the blade as the other photos as its further away to get the entire blade length. I have a scanner but can never get it to scan the blade as well as i get lucky in some photos. Oh, and the handachi fuchi and kashira are silver. They have a lovely patina on them. and there are kiri yusurimei on the nakago that dont show up in the photos. Chris Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 I'll bid sue-Mihara based on well... little really, just a gut feeling from the photobucket pics. John Quote
chrstphr Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 ok, so Adam thinks it early Mino. And John thinks it late Mihara. I think my photos are not helping much, but those are both dates i have been given previously. The school on the Hozon papers is Mino Senjuin and the paperwork is from 1988. Does knowing the attribution make it easier to get a ballpark date? And i have the hozon papers in a frame behind glass hanging on a wall. Reflections on the glass are what is over the papers. They are not stained. Chris H. Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Mino Senjuin must refer to the Akaska Senjuin ha which is of the Yamato tradition with the influence of Yamashiro den. So the blade is mid/late Muromachi period I expect. John Quote
paulb Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 John, I am not saying you are wrong but why do you state that an attribution to Mino Senjuin must refer to the Akasaka Senjuin ha? I havent looked at Mino Senjuin for a long time but dont remember it specifically realting to the Akasaka Ha. Can you confirm your thinking/ references? Quote
chrstphr Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 Hi John, the school i think started around 1387 and continues today as Mino Seki. Is 1390 considered mid Muromachi or early? when is mid? 1400-1500? Is late 1500-1575? what date for this blade would you consider? 1400s 1450s 1500s 1550s ? Chris H. Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Shigehiro (Sensui) co-founder of the Yamato Senjuin ha with Yukinobu is a smith that moved from Yamato to Mino, Akasaka, aprox. 1200 and is reputed by some sources as the founder of the Akasaka Senjuin ha. He was a Goban Kaji and with the defeat of Gotoba 1221 may have moved to Akasaka with Yukikuni (Bizen) [M] Shige hiro and some related smiths must be considered as displaced Yamato den kaji. SHIGEHIRO SENJUIN [NIN'AN 1166 YAMATO] KOTÔ JÔJÔSAKU [F] Kuninaga is the accepted founder of the Akasaka Senjuin ha of Mino that was the now new formalised ha and can be considered a Mino den kaji separate from the heretofore ha of the same name. That is although he migrated from Nara, Yamato, mid-14th century. This is subject to conjecture and we mustn’t neglect the Jumyo ha which was connected to both Mino and Yamato kaji. [M] KUNINAGA SENJUIN [EITOKU 1381 ND MINO] CHÛKOTÔ CHÛJÔSAKU He is the founder of Akasaka Senjuin. [F] [F] Fujishiro [M] Minoto Shohei-Choroku middle period 1346-1459 Kansho-Bunroku late period 1460-1595 Paul, I do not know of a Mino Senjuin ha unless it is this Akasaka Senjuin ha of Mino. Anyway the school did move about, but, I am not sure of them being the origin of the Akasaka Seki ha. They may be a separate lineage from Akasaka esp. with the nanori ‘Kane’ which appears in the Akasaka Senjuin ha in small numbers. Naoe Shizu ha kaji seem a better source for the Seki ha. John Quote
paulb Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 thanks John. It isnt a school I have spent much time on but had not seen the link before. appreciate the additional information. Regards Paul Quote
chrstphr Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 John, thanks for your information. I was confusing the Akasaka Senjuin and Mino Seki schools together. So you think this attribution being Mino Senjuin from the NBTHK is to the Akaska Ha and not the Mino Seki Ha that formally started in 1390s? Were they two distinct branches in the mid to late Muromachi? Trying to get a clear picture of what the attribution Mino Senjuin means. Thanks everyone for commenting on my thread. Though it appears other than mid to late Muromachi, i cant get any closer to a real date range. Any opinions this is from the 1300s? 1400s? 1500s? It seems I am even further from a date range than when i started the thread lol. Chris Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Based upon what can be seen in these images this sword represents, imho, an argument for why it is so important for these swords to receive an excellent polish by a 'good polisher' the first time. While the call of a Muromachi sword isn't going to change here, specific details (shape, activity), that a competent polisher would bring out can narrow down exactly the era, tradition, school, and even perhaps the individual smith. The alternative is a sword left in a kantei limbo of where its anyone's guess, and where the shinsa teams play it safe. Quote
chrstphr Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 thanks Franco, i wonder if my photos are making the polish look bad. I never considered the polish was not excellent. My understanding was it was polished in Japan and then submitted to shinsa for papers and passed Hozon in 1988. Showa 63. But i do not really know its history aside from the NBTHK papers and date on them. I bought the sword around 2002 i think. And i never considered the Shinsa team might play it safe. I just figured the blade didnt match any quality smiths from that school so they left it as Mino Senjuin. I loved all the activity in it, and it was a very nice sword to me. So am i just better off to describe this as mid to late Muromachi and just forget trying to get closer to a date or a century? Chris Quote
chrstphr Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Here are some more photos. I got closeups of the blade, maybe these will help. If you view it as slideshow the photos are bigger. http://www.photobucket.com/chrissword Chris Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 chrstphr said: So am i just better off to describe this as mid to late Muromachi and just forget trying to get closer to a date or a century? Chris, take the time to study this blade carefully under all different lighting and continue to compare what you're seeing against all the written material you can muster up on Mino-Senjuin, and see if the shoe fits. Sometimes what happens when studying a sword over lengthy periods of time is you will begin to make out details that went unnoticed before, and those details may very well help determine some of the answers you're seeking. If nothing else you will become very knowlegable about Mino Senjuin swords, and you will understand more exactly what your sword is or is not. Whenever a sword is papered it becomes important to understand as much as possible why the shinsa made the call they did. One reason I like the Compton books and catalogs is that they offer many excellent profile pictures of ID'd swords from the various time periods, including early, mid, and late Muromachi, for comparitive study. Quote
chrstphr Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Hi, thanks. i do look for info on Mino Senjuin all the time, but its not a big school with tons on swords on the market and there seems to be less readily available information and i find few Mino Senjuin swords on the internet. That was why i finally started this thread. Did the new photos shed any light or are they are uninformative as my first photos? Chris Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 chrstphr said: Did the new photos shed any light or are they are uninformative as my first photos? nagamaki said: One reason I like the Compton books and catalogs is that they offer many excellent profile pictures of ID'd swords from the various time periods, including early, mid, and late Muromachi, for comparitive study. , one of the biggest rushes in nihonto study is when you discover something for yourself, I think. Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Besides Kuninaga (3 gen.) here are some kaji you may check. All mid-Muromachi Akasaka Senjuin of Mino ha. (Minoto, Cox) Hironaga, Hirosada, Kanekaku (2 gen.), Kanemitsu, Kanesaki, Kanesumi (2 gen.), Kanesuye, Kanezane, Kiyomune, Kunihisa, Kunimitsu, Kuniyuki (2 gen.), Michiaki, Mitsuzane, Muneyoshi (Jumyo)(4 gen.), Nagazane (2 gen.), Nagatoki, Sadashige, Senjuin, Senshin, Sensui, Uemonshiro, Yasushige, Yasuhiro, Yasumitsu, Yasunaga (2 gen.), Yasutsugu Quote
Mark Green Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I would say that polish looks pretty good. Not sure it could stand another polish. Nice sword. Congrats. Mark G Quote
chrstphr Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Thanks guys for all the info. I did consider sending it for shinsa with the NTHK to see what they would say in comparison to the NBTHK paper. But all in all, im fine with the hozon papers and I love the sword. I even love the koshirae though its all hobbled together. It has a few scratches from the old shirasaya that it came in (that i stopped using a few years ago). But I wouldnt have this polished again. I was thinking of a new shirisaya for it. Chris Quote
chrstphr Posted May 18, 2012 Author Report Posted May 18, 2012 change in plans, I actually have this listed now on consignment on Yakiba.com. Chris Quote
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