taudelt Posted February 13, 2012 Report Posted February 13, 2012 This holster held a very nice RZM PPK 836048 which was manufactured in 1936. It was brought back from Japan at the end of WW2. Any help on what the markings mean would be appreciated... Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 13, 2012 Report Posted February 13, 2012 Walther PPK. The Kanji say 有末 次 which will be the name of the owner. Arimatsu Hide (?) Quote
Guido Posted February 13, 2012 Report Posted February 13, 2012 I think the family name reads "Arisue", and the given name "Yadoru". I never heard 次 being pronounced "Hide". Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 13, 2012 Report Posted February 13, 2012 I am happy with Arisue too! Couldn't decide which. Tsugu can be read Chika, Tsugi, Tsugu, Hide and Yadoru in names, my dic says. Hmmm... Yadoru sounds like Adolf (Adorufu)... Quote
Nobody Posted February 14, 2012 Report Posted February 14, 2012 FYI; http://www.generals.dk/general/Arisue/Yadoru/Japan.html Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 14, 2012 Report Posted February 14, 2012 Guido, right on the money. Moriyama san, you are a star! PS A sobering thought to realize what a personal thing this PPK must have been. There must be living relatives in Japan. A very close relative of mine was also in a similar position at that time, only two generations removed. Quote
taudelt Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Posted February 14, 2012 Many thanks for all who have replied. The information on General Arisue is more than I could hope for. The very best thing would be to return it to his family. Can anyone suggest what I can do next. I am from Cleveland, Ohio and unfortunately can not speak or understand Japanese. Many years ago I had aquired a dagger that had belonged to a WW2 German Naval Officer whose name was on the scabbard and had tried to return it to him as it was reported that he was still living at the time. Unfortunately, he passed on before I could make contact and his family never responded to the correspondence that I had sent. Any help here would be deeply appreciated.... Quote
cabowen Posted February 14, 2012 Report Posted February 14, 2012 First of all, firearms such as this one are illegal in Japan. Secondly, most would rather forget and I have found that most efforts to return items such as this are usually either dead ends or the family is just not interested.... Quote
taudelt Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Posted February 15, 2012 Pictures of the pistol that was in the holster.. Quote
taudelt Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Posted February 15, 2012 Chris.... Thanks for your thoughts and I understand but I feel the need to at least make the effort... Quote
watsonmil Posted February 15, 2012 Report Posted February 15, 2012 Dear Sir, 1. Kindly sign your name as per the forum rules. 2. Unlike the USA, ... private ownership of firearms in Japan is for the most part prohibited, ... and without the holster the pistol will have considerably less value both monetarily or historically. If you are not interested in the pistol and holster there are plenty of collectors in the USA who would treasure them ( together ). ... Ron Watson Quote
george trotter Posted February 15, 2012 Report Posted February 15, 2012 Interesting items for sure. Wearing my firearms interest hat I can tell you that both pistol and holster are commercially made and sold (ie. they are not military issue). The commercial markings and finish on the pistol are fairly obviously not military and the presence on the holster of the D.R.G.M. stamp (I forget the the translation) meaning German Patent Registered or suchlike, is found on many commercial items. Have a look-up on google at the history of General Arisue and see if he went to Germany in the 1930s-40s, it would indicate he purchased the pistol in a gunshop there...if a friend picked it up for him then you'll never know much of the detail of how he got it. Nice find indeed. Regards, Quote
taudelt Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Posted February 15, 2012 George... The RZM logo on the L/H side of the slide stands for Reichszeugmeisterel which roughly translates into National Materials Control or Quartermaster for the Nazi party. My guess at this point is that perhaps it was a gift. Quote
cabowen Posted February 15, 2012 Report Posted February 15, 2012 I was thinking the same thing- it was most likely a gift from a visiting German officer or official....I have seen similar gifts between the German and Japanese during war time...I have a tanto made by MIyaguchi Yasuhiro that was made as a gift from the Hachioji police department to a certain German officer..... Quote
george trotter Posted February 16, 2012 Report Posted February 16, 2012 Maybe the RZM mark does indicate some official use (like on presentation daggers?)...although made in the general run of commercial production, maybe this was from a batch made (marked RZM) as an official police issue pistol/holster and was given to Arisue by a police dept in Germany (taken new from stores)...just a thought (I guess I'm guessing!). Mark has a lot of options to research... Regards, Quote
Nobody Posted February 16, 2012 Report Posted February 16, 2012 FYI; Prof. ARISUE, Ken (有末賢) of Keio Univ. is a relative of Gen. Arisue. Quote
Tepo911 Posted March 20, 2012 Report Posted March 20, 2012 Mr. Trotter, Your comment that lacking Waffenamt acceptance marks would indicate that this PPK was produced for commercial sales is entirely incorrect. As Mr. Molchen indicated the RZM protection mark was applied to all equipment procured for the Nazi Party (NSDAP). There was a block of PPKs produced under contract for the NSDAP from serial number 820 000 K to serial number 845 000 K. All guns within this serial number range have the RZM mark and were produced under contract to the NSDAP. There were a great many other PP/PPKs produced for various organizations. None bore military acceptance Waffenamts and also were not by any means commercial. Some of these are: RFV, RBD, SA, NSKK, RPLT Persian, SS, DRP. There were more and for me that is what makes the PP/PPKs fascinating. The wide variety and collectibility of guns containing these factory markings. In the case of the RZM PPKs, all were earned by and issued ONLY to Political Leaders within the NSDAP for service to the NSDAP. So as you can see, this would not under any circumstances be a pistol purchased commercially during a visit to Germany. Rather, this gun would have changed hands almost certainly from a Nazi Political Leader to the General likely as an honored gift. Steve Stepan Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 20, 2012 Report Posted March 20, 2012 Sorry, but even though it is nice to dream away at the possibility ! this holster was own by the specific general mentioned you should do much more research before you can at all prove he was the owner. The serial number does point in the direction of this man. (read over that part... sorry) Many German made weapons were shipped to Japan just before the war, and even during the war a lot of them did have Waffenamt markings, but the RZM marking on this gun can certainly point in the direction of someone high up, though I find it strange that a lot of other RZM marked weaponry like Bajonets was issued to non political lower rank persons throughout the entire 1933-1945 period. KM Quote
Brian Posted March 21, 2012 Report Posted March 21, 2012 Thank you Steve, that ties in with the info presented so far. To me, there is little doubt as to the provenance of this one. No need to fake a Japanese name on a PPK, as the value isn't astronomical with this info. Sounds like a nice item, with info that ties in with what is presented. Brian Quote
george trotter Posted March 21, 2012 Report Posted March 21, 2012 Mr. Trotter,Your comment that lacking Waffenamt acceptance marks would indicate that this PPK was produced for commercial sales is entirely incorrect. So as you can see, this would not under any circumstances be a pistol purchased commercially during a visit to Germany. Rather, this gun would have changed hands almost certainly from a Nazi Political Leader to the General likely as an honored gift. Steve Stepan Thanks for correcting me on this Steve, sorry for the misreading of the RZM stamp. Can you comment on whether the DRGM holster is commercial or military issue also? Thanks, Quote
george trotter Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 Hi again Steve, I just accidentally found a PPK - RZM discussion with pics and the holster shown was marked DRGM also...so I guess that answers my question...it seems that all German Walther PPKs shown were finished like this one ...it seems that some batches of pistols were made expressely for the NSDAP and these had the RZM mark...otherwise they are all the same (ie. commercial grade finish except for the RZM stamp)... the holsters shown were marked with a DRGM mark, but some had the manufacturer also. So, as has been said , this one looks like a NSDAP member gift to Arisui....nice historic find...worth researching IMHO. Regards, Quote
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