Why Mumei?

[drbvac]

True enough - same with any bit of history that is questionable - they seem to want to fill it in and need be will make it up !!

 

Very interesting thread but - I did respond in part to the original question by Mr Sinclaire regarding the appearance or seeming appearance in the hamon of dragon chasing a tama::

 

"In terms of the dragon abstract your interpretation is certainly plausible and of more credibility than mine - in fact a fairly astute observation that once stated tend to keep drawing your eyes. Like someone saying " I can see the water and mountains in that Picasso' as i nod my head and can not see anything."

 

If in fact this was the intention I can't say other than repetition of a theme along the blade that there are many hamon that would be made to look like a specific single entity such as this. Does anyone else find themselves seeing things and trying to figure what it could be or is it once again imagination filling the void of facts.

 

Anyone have any examples where this was done and noted what the figure was>?

[kusunokimasahige]

Keith, as an Ancient Historian I must fully agree with your friend.

 

KM

[runagmc]

True enough - same with any bit of history that is questionable - they seem to want to fill it in and need be will make it up !!

 

Very interesting thread but - I did respond in part to the original question by Mr Sinclaire regarding the appearance or seeming appearance in the hamon of dragon chasing a tama::

 

"In terms of the dragon abstract your interpretation is certainly plausible and of more credibility than mine - in fact a fairly astute observation that once stated tend to keep drawing your eyes. Like someone saying " I can see the water and mountains in that Picasso' as i nod my head and can not see anything."

 

If in fact this was the intention I can't say other than repetition of a theme along the blade that there are many hamon that would be made to look like a specific single entity such as this. Does anyone else find themselves seeing things and trying to figure what it could be or is it once again imagination filling the void of facts.

 

Anyone have any examples where this was done and noted what the figure was>?

Yoshino-gawa (cherry blossoms), Tatsuta-gawa (maple leaves), Umebachi (plum blossoms), Tohran (big wave), Mt. Fuji, Sudare (bamboo blinds), Kikusui (chrysanthemum on a stream) ...... I don't know if these examples are relevant to your question, but here they are...

[drbvac]

Adam:

 

They are certainly object incorporated into the hamon but I believe most of them are repeated along the edge - Mt Fuji is the theme is repeated 4 or 5 times is it not. I was referring to something more in line with what Mr. Sinclaire was describing - one "picture" all along the edge. I dont recall but the more I look at the original post picture the more I can see what was described - could be tired eyes or imagination or Scotch. ?

 

Thanks -

[sanjuro]

OK.. I'm seeing a dragon chasing a tama in this blade........ Quite stylised but definitely there as if seen in a cloud.... :D Does this mean I need to cut back on the meds?????

[runagmc]

Dr. Brian, yes most of the time they were repetitive, as you say, but sometimes they where done without repetition. Here are some exaples to compare,

 

I also wanted to post this pic of a sodai Yoshimichi that has a similar feature. I'm not sure abot the dragon idea, but it is worth considering... it seems like I remeber reading that the single tobiyaki in the kissaki symbolized something else but I'm not 100% sure. Anyway here's the pic along with Clive's oshigata (hopefully you don't mind that I cropped it to fit, Clive)

[mab0303]

a friend suggested i read this conversation. i am glad i did!

[Alex A]

Agreed, good read, now im speculating. Early Edo period for instance, after Sekigahara, 500,000 unemployed samurai without income or support, two Ronin rebellions, stories infact of unemployed Samurai selling their swords.

 

Now then, a knock on effect, certain smiths hitting difficult times. To make a living, these particular smiths may have had to sell a number of swords off at give away prices. If that where the case, would they have been likely to sign?,

 

Would that explain a number of mumei Edo swords?, or have i drank too much coffee?

[Alex A]

Moving on, another thought circling my noggin regarding mumei pieces, particularly Tanto/wakizashi from the Nanbokucho period. Ive been looking at work from rated schools. Ive seen mumei, UBU, tanto/wakizashi with original elaborate carved Horimono and some not so elaborate, typical Suken, Bonji and Ken.

 

Now then, the fact that these mumei/ubu blades have these horimono tells me the work was good. Why would a smith go to the hassle of carving horomono if the blade was inferior?

 

So, there had to be good reason these blades in particular where not signed. Ive read the VIP/Shrine theory. Maybe in these cases, thats correct.

[kusunokimasahige]

Okay, last idea. Not so far fetched perhaps.

 

A large order comes in, say, 500 swords. With a deadline. The Smith only signs the top swords (in his opinion) for the higher ranking, leaves the rest.

 

No need for an ashigaru to own a high name sword.

 

KM

[Alex A]

I suppose each blade has to be looked at individually, the school, the time, the quality, ubu or not and then one can make up their own mind, speculate :lol:

Given the number of swords past down through generations, seems a pity information was lost along the way.

 

Ps Km, there must have been many genuine far fetched reasons that some swords where left unsigned, yours isnt one of them

[Marius]

 

 

4) I have never heard of a votive sword being left unsigned and I know of many that are signed. I am sure that a shrine would rather have a valuable sword signed by a current master swordsmith than be presented with a less valuable mumei piece.

 

Clive,

 

this may apply to Shinto and later swords. I think it could have been common in the case of earlier votive swords. Take the extraordinary (because of its health) Kamakura tachi in the Kasuga Taisha...

 

Hiroshi Kojima (his smith name is Keiun Naohiro) has a theory about mumei blades:

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ubumumei.html

[Alex A]

Interesting little read Mariusz. Seems Era may play an important role.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you Alex ! Anyone who knows me knows I am a little

 

Indeed most of what is put forward here is based upon conjecture. And unless somewhere deep down the Tokugawa Bakufu archives we come across a set rule which says:

 

A sword should be mumei under the following circumstances :

-xxxx

-xxxx

-xxxx

-xxxx

 

We will never know for sure.

 

KM

[Uechi]

The reason a ubu Shinto wakizashi is left unsigned is becouse it was meant to be unsigned. Unless a person was there at the time it was left unsigned to testify otherwise the blade should be reguarded with some uncertainty and that should reflect in the kantai-sho and the value. This is reasonable, unsigned blades should not be reguarded quite as high as signed blades.

Thank You, Mark P.

 

Couldn't disagree more with"...unsigned blades should not be regarded quite as high as signed blades" In my opinion, that is totally fallacious unless you are referring to peoples propensity to buy blades that are signed for eventual resale value. There are myriads of unsigned blades that are Juyo so you can't be talking about quality.

[Marius]

Jeffry,

 

while I am in the same camp as you are, unsigned shinto will not be awarded Juyo.

[Jean]

There are myriads of unsigned blades that are Juyo so you can't be talking about quality.

 

Jeffrey,

 

Please read this article and don't generalize NBTHK policy, you won't find any mumei Muromachi blade Juyo. Precize your thought, it is too general, what do you call unsigned blade? O suriage or ubu mumei, or both?

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html

[Mark S.]

 

Hiroshi Kojima (his smith name is Keiun Naohiro) has a theory about mumei blades:

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ubumumei.html

 

 

 

Regarding an ubu mumei Kai-Mihara katana (I posted about a while ago) with both Kosh-hi on the omote side and Gomabashi on the ura side, here is where I start wondering if I just have wishful thinking... but two quotes from the above website:

 

"In medieval Japan, when a smith makes a blade for some god or Buddha, he tries to make a best blade, but no will to put his signature on the tang. He refrains from putting his signature on the holy thing that will offer in shrine or temple. When the smith gets an order from some high class lord, he takes the same way. It is a manner to respect the objects humbling the smith himself... The originally unsigned blades with good quality would be made by such situation. Probably they were made for some god or Buddha, or by order from high class person."

 

AND in combination with (from same website):

 

"Koshi-hi (short groove)

This is a short groove with rounded top.

Usually it suggests the sword of the Buddha "Fudo-myo'o". Its meaning is the same to the engraving "Ken" that is the symbol of power of Buddha. Sometimes Koshi-hi can mean any Buddha. It is the most simple symbol of prayers.

It is not a decoration, so it must appear on one side of the blade.

 

Hashi or Goma-bashi (chopsticks)

This is double narrow short grooves with the same length and rounded top.

These are symbol of chopsticks that used for a Buddhism ceremony. So they also mean a power of Buddha.

 

Combination of grooves

Bo-hi or Futasuji-hi doesn't have any special meaning by them selves. When they appear on each side of blade, it can have a meaning of prayer. They may suggest a Buddha and his two valets. A main Buddha with two second Buddhas is common motif in Buddhist images."

 

In my blade's case, could it point to an order from a shrine/temple... or a 'high ranking' person with deeply held religious beliefs... or other...?

 

Of course we will never know... and sometimes a little information (as above) put together can lead to some pretty wild 'guesses'... but a man can dream...

 

Mark S.

[Alex A]

Mark, the price of your sword as just doubled

 

This could be another topic, but does have something to do with what is being written about blades made for nobles/posh samurai. Im assuming smiths of old did not do Horimono free of charge, so, horimono would suggest the blade was made for someone up the ladder, would it not?

[paulb]

Alex

no not necessarily. They were done for someone with money. Increasingly in the Edo period this was the merchant class and is why you tend to also find such decorative fittings on wakazashi koshirae of the time. While they had the money they were still regarded as parasites and amongst the lowest in the social structure.

[Alex A]

Hi Paul, i should have been more specific with that statement, im particularly interested in mumei/ubu pieces from the Nanbokucho period. Would this then rule out merchants?

 

This requires further reading on my part, not sure, apart from samurai, who actually carried tanto/wakizashi at that time...

[paulb]

Hi Alex

I should have paid more attention, sorry. I am not sure how many Ubu long swords from that period have horimono other than hi carved in them. While beautiful I have always thpught of bo-hi to be functional carving rather than purely decorative.

I have always considered more complex and detailed horimono more of a shinto affectation. I also wonder whether those you do see on older might be later additions. while there are examples of intricate carving on tanto from earlier I cant remember seeing too many daito. (then again there a lot of swords I havent seen!!)

[Alex A]

Here is a nice example of what i have been looking at.

http://www.nihonto.ca/naotsuna/

[cabowen]

Do we know with certainty that the horimono in that piece are not ato-bori?

 

We do know that rather intricate horimono are well known in the work of the Nobukuni group in koto, and later, in Sue Soshu from Odawara.

[Alex A]

Cheers Chris, as you say, Nobukuni school would have made a clearer choice.

[jamesicus]

"The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords", Kokan Nagayama -- Ô-suriage nakago, p 66 - description plus illustration of nagamaki naoshi tang.

 

".......... The original signature (mei) is usually completely lost, although it can sometimes be preserved as an orikaeshi-mei or gaku-mei."

[Toryu2020]

FWIW

 

I think pre-1600 it is much more likely that ubu-mumei means the piece was for some arsenal or to outfit a large army. These swords might even have had the talismanic horimono engraved as part of the order, following the religious conviction of their leader or the region. This would especially be true if making swords for one of the large Buddhist communities and if the maker himself was Buddhist.

 

There are many swords in shrines with dedication signatures - so while I feel that some may have made and offered up unsigned blades this was not a rule. We should also remember that making a sword for ceremony is different than dedicating a sword to the shrine, asking for good fortune.

 

In the Shinto period I would echo what others have said, I think it more likely that things operated much as they do today, with a smith making three or more swords for a commission or with the odd unsigned blade laying around awaiting completion. I feel a number of sources have said as much.

 

Clive -I think if it seen as rising to the level of Yoshimichi, I would be happy with that. There were several generations afterall and they had to do student work at some point and so if it is an early piece by a Tamba n/k artist it might not have got a signature.

 

my opinion only...

-t

[Toryu2020]

Further -

 

On the question of the tama and dragon - they did pictureque hamon and this is a possibility but my recollection is that in the Tamba n/k Yoshimichi school and I think Hizen Masahiro, there was a fashion for including a "Sun and Moon" in the monouchi. My thought is that this was pointed out to us as a kantei point. Of course my thinking is getting weaker and weaker these days so I could be wrong...

-t

[Alex A]

Maybe time should be narrowed down a little as regarding mumei swords, rather than categorize, each sword weighed up individually.

[Darcy]

The horimono are the same age as the tanto in that photo. The tanto was polished down and it was reflected in the horimono. Speculating that the smith may have made it and then someone added the horimono extremely soon after, who knows.

 

There are only bonji among his Juyo items and those are rare.

 

There is this same design on one of the Nobukuni Jutos but it is mirror image and the dragon executed differently. There is one on Akihiro as well with some stylistic difference. I think if we were to look anywhere it would be toward the Bizen group. Seems most common on Kanemitsu. But, some authors group Naotsuna in as Soden Bizen.

 

Anyway from my recollection of the piece, the horimono was polished down considerably and seemed like it had taken on even more than the piece itself which implied the piece was pretty thick originally. I think it was there from the start and possibly if someone wants to say Not Naotsuna on this work they could try to argue the attribution.