Tsuba Help Please

[summersdogs]

Hello to all. These two were in a box of mostly US militaria items we purchased a few days ago. There isn't a tsuba-literate person in this household, so I will greatly appreciate any comments from the experts here.

 

Many thanks,

Lynne C.

[Brian]

Hi Lynne,

I must say, I quite like the look of these. The first one would benefit greatly from some professional tlc. It is iron, and the rust and crud is not doing it justice. But there is not much you can do yourself. Although oiling tsuba isn't recommended, in this case I might put a little on my fingertips and rub the tsuba to try and stabilize some of that rust. I think it will be a nice tsuba once a professional works on it.

The second one has some very nice detail too. I'm quite attracted to it. I am sure there is a Japanese legend captured here. Was it lightly with warm water and soap in your hands, and let it dry off. Dry with a very soft microfiber cloth.

I am sure someone will be able to tell you the maker of the second one. I cannot help with the schools here, but late Edo for the second and maybe mid Edo for the first?

Would love to hear Ford's thoughts on them.

 

Brian

[summersdogs]

Hi, Brian. Thank you for the post. I haven't tried to do any cleaning at all so I'm really happy that you addressed that aspect. You mentioned professional cleaning - how does one go about finding someone who does that? Would the value of the iron tsuba warrant that? (As you see, I meant it when I posted that we are totally clueless when it comes to these items. I found your excellent forum through Google as I was searching for information that might enlighten me, if only a little. There is so much to know !)

 

Lynne C.

[Brian]

Lynne,

I don't know of a service for this, especially in the West. I think this is best left to the future owner, who should know a bit about cleaning with ivory chips etc. For now, just prevent any further damage.

They aren't masterpieces, but to my eyes are nice tsuba. Values are hard to guage. Perhaps others will chime in...but a few hundred $'s each.

The way the design intrudes into the area set aside for the seppa on the second one usually indicates late work...export market. Not really for mounting, although this one looks to have been. Not much seppa (spacers) wear though. Wonder if I am missing something obvious here.

 

Brian

[Tanto54]

Hi Lynne,

 

I love the first tsuba. The second tsuba depicts Tekkai Sennin, one of the many “immortals” from Chinese legend adopted by the Japanese. He had the ability to breath out his soul and allow it to travel to other realms. Once he stayed away too long, so his pupil, thinking him dead, cremated his body. Upon his return, Tekkai Sennin was forced to inhabit the nearest available body (a recently deceased lame beggar). He is usually depicted as an emaciated, lame beggar leaning on a cane with his head turned to the side blowing out his soul.

[Soshin]

Hi Lynne C.,

 

Both tsuba look nice. The first one does have some condition issues in terms of red active rust on its surface. That need to be correctly removed. I disagree in part with Brian's analysis of the second tsuba does look late Edo or early Meiji Period but is too high of quality and craftsmanship to be for export. The second tsuba has a stamp in the form of a Japanese trademark (kao) on the reverse side (ura) that would require someone more knowledgeable then myself of late Edo or Meiji Period soft metal (kinko) to determine the maker of the tsuba. Hope you find the additional information helpful.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Lance]

Below is a pic and some info for a tsuba similar to the Soft metal one from The Peabody Museum's Japanese Sword Guards catalog. The tsuba in the catalog also has the design going into the seppa dai , and shows signs of mounting to the patina as well. Described as Nara school, circa 1750. pic of this tsuba is in black and white in the book, and only shows the one side. The one in the catalog is of a higher quality, I would guess that your tsuba was either made by a different-later Nara school maker, or a different group that was influenced by the design.

 

Nice pair of tsuba to pull out of a box, hope this is useful,

Lance

[Lorenzo]

My bet is Hizen for the sukashi and I agree with Nara for the kinko tsuba.

[Surfson]

Very nice tsuba. I would think it unlikely that the soft metal tsuba is Meiji, as it appears to have been mounted.

[Soshin]

  Surfson said:

Very nice tsuba. I would think it unlikely that the soft metal tsuba is Meiji, as it appears to have been mounted.

 

 

Hi Robert S.

 

In my reply I was referring to the very early part of the Meiji Period before the offical banning of the public wearing of the daisho by bushi circa 1876. I have more information on my website about that topic. We agree on the most important point that it is a nice tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[docliss]

I am unable to identify the seal on Lynne’s second tsuba, and wonder if Ludolf has it on his database? Personally, and with very little evidence to support it, my inclination is to label both the tsuba and the seal as being gimei for Jōi. Shoot me down somebody!

 

John L.

[Jean]

  Quote

Shoot me down somebody!

 

Sorry John, my guns are locked in my safe :D

[Eric H]

  docliss said:

my inclination is to label both the tsuba and the seal as being gimei for Jōi.

Issando Joi seal

 

Eric

[Curran]

Eric,

I thought the same. I did not confirm with books.

[John A Stuart]

I was going nuts trying to find that kakihan and was almost convinced it was Takamine, read right to left, however I am not convinced and probably wrong. Moriyama or Morita san should be able to decipher it, if not others, it doesn't seem too complex compared to some. John

[Pete Klein]

This is from the Kinko Meikan:

 

 

BTW: Joi made only a handful of tsuba, specializing in small fittings. 99.99% of all tsuba you see with the 'Joi' mei are fakes. Also, if you look at the right hand column of characters at the bottom you will see the kanji for 'Meijin', the highest rank for fittings maker. If you see anything which is not perfection it's not legit.

[Soshin]

Dear Pete Klein,

 

Therefore we are dealing with a fairly nice tsuba with a very fake signature. I was introduced to a new Japanese term this week by the NBTHK its called fugokaku (no pass) because of a gimei (fake signature). Yes they give this judgement out sometime even when not dealing with a Nihonto or Kinko tsuba. I might start another thread on the NMB about my recent failed tsuba. It is a nice tsuba just with a fake signature.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Guido]

  Soshin said:

I was introduced to a new Japanese term this week by the NBTHK its called fugokaku (no pass) because of a gimei (fake signature).

David, Fugôkaku (不合格) just means "failed / rejected / (not passing a grade in school)" and is not specific to swords or Kinkô (or even Shinsa in general). The reason for failing isn't always Gimei (although those items fail without fail ), it also can be lack of quality etc. as outlined in the NBTHK Shinsa rules.

[cabowen]

and gokaku 合格 means "pass"....You will see these stamped on the submission tags at shinsa.